Laurie James 0:07
Welcome to Confessions of a Freebird podcast. I'm your host, Laurie James, a mother, divorcee, recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go, a Therapy Junkie, Relationship Coach, Somatic Healer, and now podcaster. I'm a free spirit and here to lift you up. On this podcast, I'll share soulful confessions, and empowering conversations with influential experts. So you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half. So pop in those earbuds turn up the volume. And let's get inspired because my mission is to help you create your most joyful, purpose driven life, one confession at a time.
Laurie James 0:54
Welcome Freebirds. I am so honored to have my guest with me today. And I have to confess she's a rock star. She's also a friend, a fellow coach that I went through coaching training with and an all around beautiful and very funny soul. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. Terri Donahue, my guest today is a passionate life and leadership coach dedicated to empowering marginalized communities with a compassionate focus on people of color and embracing neurodiversity. Her extensive background in the nonprofit sector has allowed her to collaborate closely with leaders to prioritize the needs of under represented groups driving forward diversity, equity, and inclusivity. She has been recognized for her contributions in the arena by University of British Columbia, receiving an award for achievements in Anti-racism, and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. As an Emmy nominated makeup artists, she brings a unique anti oppressive perspective to her coaching practice. So welcome, Terri, thank you so much for being here with me today.
Terri Donahue 2:20
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you, my old friend.
Laurie James 2:26
I know. And another confession too, is after we got certified, I had told you like I had a vision of us doing a podcast together and it was like seems so far out of reach at that time. So I'm so glad that my dream is coming true.
Terri Donahue 2:44
Yes. And I'm so happy to see that you're completely working your wildly improbable goals. Thank you.
Laurie James 2:52
So tell our listeners a little bit more about your background and how you found this coaching niche that you're doing right now.
Terri Donahue 3:03
Yes, DEI work. Oh, my gosh, it is actually a part of who I am. And everyone that does this work, realize that it goes beyond just checking a box. It is a part of your values. It's me valuing fairness, all my life, really, I was the governor of the Television Academy, and we did the Emmys. And soon as I got into a position of power, I basically just started to level the playing field. Instead of all four categories, taking home Emmys, prosthetic men winning all areas, I felt it was my duty to uplift the underdogs, or at least level the playing field and what has always been who I am. And it was very seamless that I ended up going in that direction because it's not really a niche. I don't believe it's a niche. It's definitely a value. And I feel as if coaches need to understand more that it's not something that you do. It's something you believe in and who you are. Yeah.
Laurie James 4:20
I love that. So can you help us demystify what Diversity Equity and Inclusion really means?
Terri Donahue 4:32
Sure. I mean, that is a very big broad question. I don't know...
Laurie James 4:40
We can stay on that question for hours. But big picture.
Terri Donahue 4:44
Big picture. I think demystifying part is that people automatically- we all have bias. And we all have this point where we think we know what something is and a lot of the bias that I'm seeing and experiencing is that people believe it is about black and white racial or ethnic issues and differences and things. It's really not all about race and ethnicity. Yes, anti-racism is the foundation of DEI work. And after the murder of George Floyd, it became more prominent to have that discussion, because the DEI work wasn't really creating as much change as we needed in time. So yes, having an anti-acism lens is very important. But DEI is really about, like I said, leveling the playing field, or thinking of people that have less advantage, and creating more equality aiming for equality for them. Because equality is not something we have, it's something we aim for. And that's why equity is us understanding that not everyone is created equal, unfortunately, within societal standards, that we have to uplift them in order for everyone to be able to have the same privileges.
Laurie James 6:17
Yeah. And we do that through inclusion correct to my, like including everybody, and making sure, so I've also seen this word belonging added to the end of that the DEI, what, in your opinion, is that additional piece? How do you do that?
Terri Donahue 6:40
Thank you for asking. Belonging is a feeling, and belonging is a result from DEI efforts. It's a feeling of I belong here. My voice matters. My presence is valued. Belonging, and justice is a part of DEI work. So yes, belonging, usually, there's a lot of acronyms flying around, because it's a big title. Yeah. But yeah, people add that belonging, because really, what they're saying is, that's what they're going for.
Laurie James 7:12
So that's the end result is we want diversity, we want equity, we want inclusion, so that way we can feel like we belong.
Terri Donahue 7:21
Exactly. Yeah, yes.
Laurie James 7:23
Now I like I sit here, and I don't know what you've experienced in your life. And my heart goes out to you and other people of color that have had to struggle as a white person, I have had my own issues, just in general with lack of feeling like I belong. So I get that on some level, again, not at the level that I think that you have experienced it feeling like being adopted not feeling like I belonged in my family, not looking like my parents or my two brothers. So I can only imagine that on a larger scale, and then having that be affected by your workplace, and then also just out in our society, how difficult that has been for you and other people of color.
Terri Donahue 8:11
Yeah, well, you know, I love that you said, I don't want to take away from your lived experience, because a lot of people can feel as if their identity is maybe diminished by someone else saying I've had struggles, but that's the thing with society. Really, we are all harmed by this dominant culture, supremacy culture. We're all harmed by it.
Laurie James 8:39
It does not say the male, the white male patriarchy.
Terri Donahue 8:42
I mean, and they're even harmed by it, because it's really our intersecting identities, right? You could be a white male and be an immigrant, or be physically disabled, or be neurodivergent. And still feel like you don't belong. Yeah, it's really about realizing that, yes, I as a black woman, my primary identity, because it walks into the room before me, like before I even open my mouth before I do anything, I'm at a disadvantage because of my skin color. Because this is the society that I was created. It's not an essential thing. It's societal.
Laurie James 8:42
And there's the unconscious bias that comes with that, right? Yes. It's just a fact. And even though you can say, Oh, I'm not biased, but we are. And so if we can bring a little bit more awareness around that, you know, I think that's, you continue to bring more and more awareness and then take action. I think that's important for us to do.
Terri Donahue 9:47
Yeah, and bias, we all have them. If you were to think of a lawyer, the first image that comes to your mind, usually a white man with a suit on and a briefcase is the first thought that people have that's a bias. That's just your instant first reaction to an image or a person or thing. And we all have them. But as a coach, a DEI coach, I would question those bias. You know, or if there's something that's a problem, and it's a repeated problem, or you feel as if you don't like a certain cultural group, then you have to say, okay, so why don't I like this cultural group? You know, has something happened, okay? And then what does that mean? All the whole cultural group is like that, just because of whatever..
Laurie James 10:44
For one person's experience you've had.
Terri Donahue 10:48
Exactly, or if someone thinks of a criminal, you know, then they initially it's like a black man in a hoodie or something, somewhere. And that is taught that is all taught to us through unconscious messages throughout the culture. And those are the bias that we need to question. Okay, so why is that? And we all have it, it is just about self-awareness, and being able to see, Oh, that's there. And being curious to why is that there? And is it beneficial? For you? Does it make you a better person as well? And is it affecting your work or affecting other people's lives? And the workplace or social life? Yeah, yeah.
Laurie James 11:34
Now, beautifully said. Thank you. That's beautiful insight on that. So changing the topic just a little bit? How do you see yourself educating and supporting others? In the world of DEI be?
Terri Donahue 11:52
You like that be?
Laurie James 11:54
I do. Because, and I love the feeling part about it. Because isn't that what we all want, we want to feel like we belong. We want to feel like we belong in this world, in our community, in our family, in our relationships.
Terri Donahue 12:12
I totally agree. I mean, we all want to feel that loving feeling that inclusive feeling. And that is what this work is about, is creating that for people, or using our power and privilege to create that for people, the more that you have, or your voices, how I educate people, I facilitate workshops, and I have a lot of different DEI workshops. And I am so open for I have them all over, I don't know if I can say this Eventbrite.
Laurie James 12:49
Yeah no, you can say whatever you want.
Terri Donahue 12:52
Yeah. And people come in all the time. And I just enjoy giving the workshop, because it's just like, I'm moving that needle just about education and self awareness. And honestly, I don't know everything about DEI, because I'm black. I literally googled it, like google is your best resource, if you want to learn about any of this just started Googling and asking questions and being curious.
Laurie James 13:22
Yeah, and having guests like you on my podcast, so I better understand it too. And share this with my listeners.
Terri Donahue 13:32
Exactly.
Laurie James 13:33
Yeah. Love that. So do you feel like diversity, equity and inclusion or DEI, is at an inflection point? And if so, why?
Terri Donahue 13:49
I don't. There's a lot of rumors going around. And this is all a part of the propaganda, right? I hope I'm pronouncing this sounds propaganda. DEI work started in the 1960s, during the Civil Rights Movement, and it is evolved since then. And yes, the murder of George Floyd, like I said, really put it out there and took it to another level. I don't believe it will go backwards. It's only going forwards, and the more you don't have to be necessarily a DEI person to lead this charge. Because we're all leaders and we're leaders in whatever position that we lead and you can be a parent. You can be a co worker, you can be any position that you stand, you can lead in so you don't necessarily have to have the title of DEI to believe in what it stands for, the values of it, but yet it's evolving. It's ever changing, and it's only getting better. A lot of people want to silence and get rid of us and move us aside because it's challenging conversation.
Laurie James 15:07
Yeah, and it's uncomfortable, a lot of comfortable. This is an uncomfortable conversation for a lot of people and how maybe that's a good question to ask, like, how do we make this more comfortable? In your opinion.
Terri Donahue 15:23
That is actually making things comfortable and easy, is a problem. So the more uncomfortable you get, that's when more change happens. Yeah, you know, that's when learn and grow.
Laurie James 15:39
How about getting comfortable with the uncomfortable?
Terri Donahue 15:42
Exactly. So you just have the conversation, you get uncomfortable, and then we hope there's self awareness for people to say, Oh, okay, what my friend Laurie is telling me, where is that true? How could that be true? And really just starting to look at it or what Terry's saying from a position of being a black woman in society? Oh, is that true? And what am I not seeing? And okay, so, now I see that I'm not seeing it, how can I change that? Where's my bias or prejudice or stereotype?
Laurie James 16:26
So, yeah no, really great point, very great point. So my next question is, so when I think of DEI, I think of the workplace. And I know a lot of companies, some do it better than others. They have DEI requirements, when they're hiring, and all of that. But how should we be thinking about this in our everyday life? Well, I don't go to an office, I don't have a staff. Yeah. So how do we do that?
Terri Donahue 17:01
We bring our whole selves to work. So like coaching, leadership coaching, career coaching, executive coaching, it's a life coaching, we bring our whole selves to work. So really, all this DEI stuff within organization, is frameworks or their initiatives, you know, they're rewriting policies and practices and all of that. But changing the minds and educating on people's lived-experience is a human education that needs to be done. So educating ourselves is what we do at home. So you're an independent contractor, or an entrepreneur. So think of inclusive, educate yourself, and think of, Oh, how have I not been inclusive? Where can I diversify, meaning not only ethnic, or racial, but there's so much to diversity, age diversity, there's neurodivergence, there's LGBTQ plus diversity, all these different ways. How can I maybe even support that community? Or give to that community? Or how can I be inclusive and bring them into my space? So if you're hiring someone that's going to redo your website, maybe if it's a person of color compared to someone that might have more privilege, maybe hire the person of color just to level the playing field? Because there's wage gaps,too.
Laurie James 17:42
Yeah. And what's interesting, you touched on this, as you were explaining this, I'm part of a giving circle, and we pull our donation dollars to help local LA nonprofits and with the idea that our donation dollars can go farther if we pull them together. And one of the organizations that we supported two years ago, I think it was is I'm blanking on the actual name, I'll drop it in the show notes. But it was Neurodiversity Institute, or whatever. But basically, what they did is they took students or people that were neurodivergent, and they helped coach them. They helped them put their resume together, and they helped them find positions within corporations to help that and a lot of people that are neurodivergent they're very good at a lot of things and may not be good at everything. But sometimes they're very bright individuals and they can do some things really well. So why not use that to your advantage, just specifically talking about the neurodivergent piece, right? But that can be true across the board, to just bring in a different perspective to to the group, to your team, whatever it is, how can that not be beneficial for our society?
Terri Donahue 20:08
And what you're talking about is diversity. See, a lot of people think it's about race and ethnicity. And it's not about that it's about different perspectives. I have a membership, it's called BIPOC collaborative connections. And what I do, I take DEI enthusiast, coaches who have different intersecting identities, and it's an online resource group. And it's for black indigenous people of color, that we have munity care, we have book clubs, we post, because the algorithms of Facebook and Instagram, they don't support conversations around diversity, equity inclusion, we get silenced. So there we have open communication on everything, whatever it is, and I support them. So that's an equity initiative, and what you're talking about that the donation that you made to your charity, that's an equity initiative. And that's the same thing that I'm doing also with BIPOC collaborative connections. And I have a GoFundMe page for anyone that wants to donate, plug into my equity initiative.
Laurie James 21:25
We'll put that in the show notes. Happy for the plug darlin, happy for the plug. Welcome, though, so what would you like a white girl like me to know about how people of color have struggled with DEI issues? In your life? Or in? Yeah, in your lives?
Terri Donahue 21:51
Yeah, it's really, when I hear you say this, it's really not DEI issues, because DEI is a positive value. So it's more of if we're going to talk about race and color and ethnicity, I do have a story that I could probably give you an example of my daily lived experience, living in my own home, that I own, with my husband and my puppy, Sewer, very big puppies. Anyway, just going to the grocery store, and going inside with my groceries and have to look over my shoulder in a predominantly white neighborhood that I live in, or being fearful to take groceries out of my car on my own property. Because of the looks that I get of not feeling that belonging. Like you can look at someone and see them think, What are you doing here? But it's..
Laurie James 22:58
You can see the look on their face...
Terri Donahue 22:59
Yeah, the question is, what are you doing here? Why are you here? Or you can see that and you can tell. And it was when this was happening. It was after in California, after the murder of George Floyd and my husband and I decided to start looking for other places to live. No, and California is supposed to be this free love, liberal place, but it's everywhere. It's everywhere. You know, the United States is very divided. But this whole world is, I'm now in Canada, because I thought my husband was like, there's no racism there. My husband's white, and felt like maybe a month, even being a DEI practitioner coach. And then it's like, Oh, no, it's just colorblind, right? I don't see color. And that is just as harmful as being someone that is bias and says stereotypes and being not inclusive.
Laurie James 24:00
How does that show up then from your standpoint? Like, how do you notice that and when that shows up, when there is no color?
Terri Donahue 24:08
What's wrong with my color? What's wrong with my color that you don't want to see it? That means that you believe there's something wrong with being black? That you're like, oh, I don't see your color. What? Seems, I see your color. There's nothing wrong with being white. Right? There's nothing wrong with being black, like people are even afraid to say black like, I'm black. Let's call me black.
Laurie James 24:33
So we've had a conversation before. And you had said that you want to be called Black, not African American. So for somebody who like me, how do we know that or do we ask like, what's the best way for somebody who doesn't know whether you because I think there might be some people who do prefer to be called African-American versus black like how should we go about that?
Terri Donahue 25:01
Yes. That's a really good question. The way you go about it, like you would go about asking anyone else is how do you identify? Everyone gets to self identify like black, I believe that is a race. It is, not that I believe it's race. Black is a race really is the ethnicity. I am not African, I don't identify as African-American. I'm Jamaican-American. I lived almost eight years in Jamaica, I was born in the United States, live there, and I came back, and I have a whole Jamaican family. So I think in the United States, it's a default, as soon as you see someone black, you say African-American, and that's not really fair there's people from Barbados, Ghana, there's all these different, yeah, countries with black people that have immigrated to the United States, and to default, and just say that they're African-American, is an assumption or if someone is Native-American, or assuming someone wants to be called Native-American, a lot of Native-Americans, like the identity of indigenous, you know, indigenous people, instead of giving people their identity and telling them what they are. You're asking, Who are you? What makes you, you, all of your intersecting identities? Yeah. And that's polite.
Laurie James 26:29
Yeah, I agree. And so thank you for sharing that, because that's huge insight. But yes, it's asking and being curious without feeling, whether it's shame or uncertainty, or whatever it is that a person might feel. Just be curious and ask. And I agree, I think that's polite. I love that.
Terri Donahue 26:53
Yeah, it reminds me of assuming someone's gender identity. Her, she, him, saying, Oh, him, and really saying, how do you identify your pronouns? Or if someone's talking about their spouse, their partner, not assuming it's a man? Or not assuming it's a black man or not assuming me? No, really asking, Oh, instead of saying, Oh, your husband say more inclusive language will be your partner. And that makes people feel that sense of belonging. Right. So if you come up to me, and you're like, oh, Terri, I don't want to mess this up. How do you identify? I want you to be the one to tell me.
Laurie James 27:37
Yeah.
Terri Donahue 27:38
So that you're not feeling excluded or your partner's okay. I can say that or just, And that's how caught into your question from earlier in your business as an entrepreneur, those are little things that you can do to include that hold the values of DEI, on intake forms, what's your pronouns?
Laurie James 28:02
Yeah.
Terri Donahue 28:02
And things like that, that makes people feel like, Oh, my pronoun is they, them, their good to know. So I'm going to re intentionally try to make that happen. Forgive me, if I mess up, but I'm doing this for you. And that's belonging.
Laurie James 28:19
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful insight. So I know, we touched on a couple of them already. And if you want to mention those again, or if you have additional ones, what are two or three ways that me and my listeners or our listeners can be part of the solution, instead of the problem?
Terri Donahue 28:47
two or three ways to be a part of the solution instead of the problem. We all regardless of race, or whatever it is, is harming people, because of a lack of knowledge. So I would say, educating yourself and educating yourself doesn't have to be seeking out di workshops. It could be as simple as on Netflix, watching a documentary on autism, or watching things from different parts of the world where you can watch different cultures instead of sticking with stuff happening in the United States. So what was going on in Sweden, what to show there? We the subtitle is just really educating yourself on different cultural identity because culture isn't just what is on the surface, what we see, smell, taste, feel, culture is so deeply embedded within 90% of it is within and it's unseen. So really getting curious about that unseen identity and cultural identities and cultures is I think the best way.
Laurie James 30:06
I haven't heard that before. Can you say that again? 90% of our identity is within.
Terri Donahue 30:12
90% of our culture is culture as within? Yes. Like your beliefs?
Laurie James 30:18
Yeah.
Terri Donahue 30:19
Your religion. Huge. I mean, you do go to church, but a lot is like what you believe it?
Laurie James 30:25
Yeah. Right. How you are raised to?
Terri Donahue 30:29
Raise us? Yes, exactly. Your thoughts, because the first 5-10 years of our lives growing up with our parents, birth parents, adoptive parents, whatever they are, like within our family is, so we absorb so much information, and it is so ingrained. And that's also a part of dismantling, our bias and all these stereotypes from back in the day, and really questioning and re-examining all of this, but yet, and that's how we coach as well. When we're coaching, we are very focused on what we're not saying, what we're not doing, what our clients aren't saying, what our clients aren't doing. And then we're wondering, what is that, how is that wow, are they going to move forward? And then you have to figure out what's holding them back. And it's the same thing. It's your culture in which you grew up in? Yeah.
Laurie James 31:32
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Any other ways that you want to add to that?
Terri Donahue 31:39
Any other ways? Oh, yes. Don't believe everything you read, hear, see that's happening. And if someone that you care about also is someone of a different cultural identity, and they're trying to tell you something, listen. So I think the curiosity, partnering with people that are different than you and educating yourself, yeah.
Laurie James 32:10
Beautiful. And if you could recommend one book, to our listeners to read on this, what would you recommend
Terri Donahue 32:19
White Fragility.
Laurie James 32:20
Which I am guilty I haven't read it. But I'm going to I promise.
Terri Donahue 32:26
I am telling you, that one, I believe, is the catalyst to start to see the lies and it is not only for white people, and I don't believe white people are fragile. That is a myth. There is nothing fragile of white people. White Fragility is the defensiveness, that happens when your I guess your identity or your thoughts or whatever it is, is challenged.
Laurie James 32:54
Or it's pushed up against
Terri Donahue 32:56
Yeah. Oh, it's like that in your Yeah, the hard conversation is no, or even saying white. Oh, my gosh, people are so uncomfortable. Black, white, it's okay. Let's talk about it. Because not talking about it is the problem.
Laurie James 33:11
Yeah,
Terri Donahue 33:11
If's you keeps tripping over that, hump in the rug. And we can't keep sweeping it under there. We need to normalize saying white fragility, because white fragility is literally a thing. And I strongly encourage the listeners to start with that book.
Laurie James 33:29
Okay.
Terri Donahue 33:29
Definitely start with that book. Yeah.
Laurie James 33:32
Thank you for that. So as we're wrapping up here, what's one confession that you'd like to make to our listeners, and maybe a takeaway around it?
Terri Donahue 33:46
Sure. Well, I identify myself as neuro-spicy, I'm a Neuro-spicy Inclusion Coach. I am ADHD and Dyslexic. And I scream it from the rooftops, because a lot of people aren't able to disclose that because of the stigma of society. So my diversity, or my intersecting identities, doesn't just stop at my skin color. I'm a woman, I'm immigrant to a new country, I am neurodivergent, And I'm starting a podcast as well, and it's called Neuro Divergently Coaching. And yes, it's all about coaching and because, like therapy, and like we we're not claiming to be therapists or stepping on trying to do anyone's job, but as someone that identifies as neurodivergent, I have and can support people on their journey towards psychological safety, well being, inner strength, acceptance, and especially the community of color because on top of our struggles with neuro-divergence and living in a neuro typical or neuro normative world and society, we're also, again, our identity, our skin color walks into the room, and doesn't even give us a chance. And as soon as we say mess up, our neural spiciness is maybe running into the neurotypical standards, we are experiencing large numbers of unemployment, being fired, not being understood, and not even expected to perform well. So I thoroughly enjoy supporting people of color and uplifting them and empowering them. Not that I believe there's anything wrong with them, because there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. It's the system and structures...
Laurie James 34:07
Society that has told you that there's something wrong with you. Right? And it's just, we all learn and think differently. And our brains work differently, even though a lot of our genetic makeup is similar. We think differently. And yeah, and that's okay. And how do we use that to our advantage as a society, instead of you looking at it as a deficit or as a weakness?
Terri Donahue 36:28
Yeah, exactly. And we are 99.9% genetically the same all races. So we are not different, in that sense, is just a little bit more sun over there that's embedded with that just...
Laurie James 36:45
Looking at us, our listeners can't see us, but I'm feeling very pale right now.
Terri Donahue 36:54
And I got my chocolate and sparkling.
Laurie James 36:55
I know, you look beautiful girl. As always.
Terri Donahue 36:55
Thank you.
Laurie James 37:00
Thank you so much for being here today. I so enjoyed this conversation, Terry. And it's always wonderful to get your viewpoint and your insight on and all of these issues and bringing them to light because we do need this in our lives. And I will make sure so how can people get in touch with you?
Terri Donahue 37:24
I am a lover of LinkedIn, I'm frequently on there. And that is really the best place to message me and find me and talk to me. I am over there. Or you can email me at coachingbyterrid@gmail.com. And if you listen to my podcast, and my website is terridonahue.com. I'm reachable, I'm findable. I'm all over the place.
Laurie James 38:00
And we'll have all those links in the show notes too. So, thank you again, Terri, for being here.
Terri Donahue 38:06
Thank you.
Laurie James 38:07
And thank you Freebirds. I hope you enjoyed this conversation.
Laurie James 38:13
Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions of a Freebird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a freebird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at laurieejames.com to learn how we can work together or to sign up for my newsletter. So you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe, rate, and review and share it with friends so they can find more freedom in their second or third act also. Until next time.