Laurie James
Welcome to Confessions of a Freebird podcast. I'm your host, Laurie James, a mother, divorcee, recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding on and Letting Go, a therapy junkie, relationship coach, somatic healer, and now podcaster. I'm a free spirit and here to lift you up. On this podcast, I'll share soulful confessions, and empowering conversations with influential experts. So you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half. So pop in those earbuds turn up the volume. And let's get inspired because my mission is to help you create your most joyful, purpose driven life. One confession at a time.
Laurie James
Hello there Freebirds. As I continue to offer dating tips throughout the month of February, I wanted to mix things up and have a guest on today. And I must confess, today, we are going to delve a little deeper and talk about dating safety. And we're going to touch on personal sexuality and how we can get a little more comfortable in our own skin. So my guest today I met probably around seven years ago, at a writing conference in the Bay Area, we were both writing our books and ended up publishing with the same publishing company. She also headed up an author cohort for a group of us women who all publish at the same time. And Carolyn, I just want to say thank you for doing that for us because that was a resource that was really invaluable to me as a first time author and speaking for other authors. I think it was also a wonderful resource for others. And I felt like we really develop friendships out of that too.
Laurie James
So without further ado, my guest today is Carolyn Lee Arnold, she is a writer, hiker, Personal Growth Workshop Assistant, former educational researcher and the author of the memoir Fifty First Dates After Fifty. The book received over 10 awards in the areas of relationships, sexuality, women's issues, and was recognized as being inspirational, uplifting and motivational. She lives in San Francisco with her partner, one of her 50 dates, and she blogs about dating and life and offers self loving dating tips. She is also working on a second book that she can touch on towards the end if she's ready to or not. So welcome, Carolyn, thank you so much for being with me today.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Thank you, Laurie, I am delighted to be here and talking to you. I admire you so much as a dating coach and all the things that you're offering for women. I'm so glad you're being a dating coach. I'm not trying to be a dating coach, I have a lot of free advice. I love to give out free advice. And I had a great time dating. But I really appreciate that you're really doing the work to reach out to women and, and help but and so it's fun to talk to you. And thanks for reminding me that we met way before she writes, Chris, that we met that a workshop.
Laurie James
And it was just great to reconnect with you once we started publishing. And just to get to know you better, and all the other incredible women who were publishing at the same time, it was really, really heartwarming. And also just to have that sense of community was, I think super important. And as women, we need that community as we're going through different experiences that support of each other. So thank you for being the lead and all that.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
You're welcome. I needed that group as much as anybody so excited to do it.
Laurie James
Yeah. So can you tell our listeners a little bit more about your background? And what sparked your interest in writing this your book Fifty First Dates After Fifty and how the idea came to you?
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Well, first of all, I didn't think I was going to write a book at all. I'm a social science researcher, I had no skills for writing a narrative non-fiction book. What I did do is I created a dating project for myself. I found myself at age 58. I'd never had a long term partner. All my relationships have been one or two years. And obviously it wasn't picking well. I did have a seven year relationship I was breaking up with with someone who didn't want to commit and I was ready for committing I kind of avoided it for a while but I was ready to commit and have a deep long term relationship and he wasn't so we broke up in that spawn or spurred me into. I said, how can I change my patterns with men? And how can I find the right partner for me? So since I'm a researcher, I gave myself a goal of going on fifty first dates, I called it the fifty first dates project. So I had this goal of going on fifty dates.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And part of the goal was, I just was trying out different types of men, they didn't have to be partner material when I went out with them, I just wanted to experience myself being with different types of men, and seeing if I wanted to broaden my type. And I wonder to not start with a list of what I wanted, but kind of develop the list as I went along. So I did this, I had this goal, it took me two and a half years to get through fifty dates, I was working full time, but I prioritize this. And what I found was, I had a lot of fun dating, I mean, the whole thing just became this way of life, finding a date, looking to the next state appreciating the men also, I have a lot of training in how to appreciate people at that point.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
So I really focused on appreciating the men and who they were not looking for their faults, and not really assuming I'd find someone until more towards the end. So I was really enjoying dating a lot of people. And I had a lot of great stories that I would tell my friends. And of course, the usual thing of the friend said, oh, you must write a book, you must write this down. So I started writing it down and taking memoir classes. And really, my motivation after a while one of my teachers said, so how's the book going? And I said, oh, my God, I don't a book, it can be a book. And that was a man, a male teacher, by the way, although most of my teachers have been women writers, and others, they all supported me.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
But my motivation was, I had so much fun dating, and I looked around and other women my age 50's and 60's, were not having fun dating or had dropped down already. Because there are these pitfalls that we fall into, we can which I had fallen into some was. One is finding someone, we're older, we're ready for a partner, if we are looking for a partner, we're ready. So sometimes we settle for the first person who comes along, even if they might not be right. The other thing that we sometimes do, and this is what I did a lot is I get discouraged, put all our eggs in one basket and think this guy is perfect, he's gonna be the one and then get so discouraged when he or we decided it's not true, that we just dropped, we can't get out there again.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And then the other thing we do is, we have a list, we have a list and no one matches the list enough to go out with them. So we didn't look at all. So I was trying to counteract all those things, by making it and it worked. I had a lot of fun. And I had this goal. So it kept me going. So I didn't take any of the dates so seriously. I was attentive to the men, but my heart was not invested in each man. I was saying this is an interesting kind of a research project, really, I'm trying to see you how it is with different men and how I am and what I like and things like that.
Laurie James
So how did you protect your heart through that? Because as women we attend to attach very quickly to people. So what did you learn along the way that helped you protect your heart during that time, when you were just dating until you found your partner?
Carolyn Lee Arnold
That is important, I realized at the end, I mean, I was wondering why I'd had so much fun because I actually I felt my heart broke who I got invested in some of the men and I thought they would be perfect for me. But they didn't think they were perfect. Or I thought, they thought I was perfect. I didn't and so I broke some hearts, I got had my heart broken. So yeah, I did have to deal with my heart being broken and being sad. But the reason I could look back and think that it was actually kind of fun was I did have some ways specifically to deal with my heart. One is a very simple thing of talking to my heart and putting her you know, kind of like if you've done any inner child work or just inner heart work, like talking to your little girl inside who's hurt or talking to your heart and saying, well, I know that it really hurt. I didn't expect that. And I was telling them that you're trying to protect them. And I did a lot to protect myself actually.
Laurie James
And also in that moment, you can listeners, you can ask your little girl what you need in that moment. Like, you know, I see that your heart is broken that inner child work. What is it that you need in this moment, right now as your adult self to help protect that younger part of you?
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Right and she might need a hug from friend, she might need to just take a bath she might meet need you to just hug her. Like I did a lot of hugging myself and journaling in writing in my journal and but really having out loud talks with my heart, because what I appreciated about my heart is she didn't keep being open. And so when we got hurt, I would say I didn't think he would hurt us. I didn't think that would happen. But you are so brave to be out there and I'm trying to protect you.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
For instance, I had a date with a guy at his house and I didn't know him that well, even though we had mutual friends. So I thought, I better have a pre date with him to see if I like him enough to spend an evening in his house. He agreed. He said, oh, okay, I hope I passed the test. And we went on a walking date out onto the pier and a nice walking gait. And I really liked him more than I thought. And I was looking forward to our date. And then he called and canceled it the night before. He said, I don't think we're a match. And I said, wait a minute, that was for me to figure out if you were, you are the ready, you're a date whole for me not for you to go, I will tell you, I was mad, sad, disappointed and I cried. It was just so disappointing, because I have started with starting to like him.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And that's what I had a really a discussion with my heart about, I told her my heart, I was trying to protect you by having that pre date. I tried, and I have a really nice heart. So she said, I understand, I see that you did. And so I said, I just love you. And I think you're very brave. And I just appreciate you staying open, and I will take good care of you. And she said, I hear you. Those kinds of things and it's okay to cry. And it's okay to feel sad.
Laurie James
That's important. And I often say that, because we don't as a society, allow ourselves to cry, allow ourselves to feel so I just want to take a moment to as you are dating, people, it is okay. And it's almost good to prepare yourself and say, yeah, my heart might get hurt. What do I need to protect my heart when it does get hurt? And how can I love that inner part of me or that part of me that is hurt or my heart? Or that little girl? Whatever you relate to right?
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Yeah, the thing is, it does start with loving yourself. And so I recommend going into dating with a whole lot of resources about loving yourself, which includes all the things we've found about affirmations and journaling and stuff. But it for me, it actually started with having a good supportive group of friends who loved me of getting feedback from other people, and knowing they would support you and having people that I could call when I did get discouraged email or call to some I'm okay that that guy wasn't good anyway, you don't need him. I think one of the best ways to take care of your heart is to have a support group to know you have a support group around you as you start dating. Because dating is a lonely part thing. You have to know who has your back.
Laurie James
Absolutely. I so agree with that, Carolyn. And that's one of the things I mentioned in one of my I think it's the first podcast on dating that I dropped is develop a strong female tribe, because we as women need to have that support system. Because even if you just look back in history and time, you know, men are the hunters and the gatherers, they go out women were around in the community, we're around the campfire, and we're supporting each other and helping to raise each other's kids. And we share information. And so that relationship is super important, even if it's just one or two women that you can really trust and that aren't going to discount what you're experiencing or what you're going through. Because that we don't want somebody who's just going to say, Oh, get over it.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
If you don't have enough people like people like that in your life. One way to find those people I found is at personal growth workshops, workshops on relationships, workshops on dating like that you do. I bet the women in your workshops really bond with each other. When you meet like minded people who are on the same path. Those are the people that will are going to support you that personal growth workshops, people are all trying to improve themselves in some way. And that's also a great hint, that's a great place to meet men also in the coed personal growth.
Laurie James
I like that because they are near on a personal growth path.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Exactly. It's the best kept secret I think. That's the best pool of men ever I think to choose from. And that's actually where I got half my dates because I knew I mean, hundreds of people went through the workshops that I went to a certain organization called the human awareness institute that puts on workshops on love, intimacy, and sexuality. And basically, it's about how to love yourself and love other people. And what better pool of men to choose from people who are trying to learn how to love themselves and love other people.
Laurie James
Yes, I've loved that. And is that based up in the bay area?
Carolyn Lee Arnold
They are based in the Bay Area, but they are also in New England, Australia, Canada, and they had a Southern California, they're still working on getting the Southern California workshops back. I went to when they're on Joshua Tree.
Laurie James
So one of the things you talk about, I've heard you talk about in other podcasts and we talked a little bit before is it goes back to what you were talking about the beginning is how do we get a better mindset to make dating fun because I know for me, dating was not fun in my 20's. I learned to have more fun in my 50's when I was dating, but I often see clients and friends and in my support group, women who really struggle with like, it's work. And it changes their energy and Juju that they're putting out there. So what can you share based off of your experience.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
I can say what worked for me, which was, it really helped to have a goal, the goal of 50 dates, or it could have been the goal of 50 weeks or several months. But a goal that kept me going, because as I said, it's so easy to get discouraged for one particular date, or to put your heart into somebody and then get discouraged. So the fact that really helped, because even though I might have been sad, or might have been tired, or I'd rather stay at a party with my friends, I said, I have a goal of 50. And I have to get out there. So it made me go to single's events. It made me go to other parties where I might meet people, I went to a Valentine's Day party by myself one time, which was really scary. I knew some of the people there, but it was I felt like I hear him on Valentine's Day, and I'm alone, but I made myself go to the party. And I did meet a date there. And you just know, sometimes you do sometimes you don't.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
But that momentum really kept me going. And it also helped my heart because if she was sad, I said, Well, we're gonna go do something, this next thing is going to be fun. So I had a variety of ways of meeting people. I mean, I was at single's events, I was at a spiritual retreat centers, I was hiking, the Sierra Club has a singles group. So I was doing a lot of fun things. So part of that is do things you'd like to do when you're dating and think a little outside the coffee date box, which is, even though it's great to have a one on one talk with someone, you can do that while strolling in a beautiful place.
Laurie James
Yeah, I did a lot of that during COVID. Not that I dated a ton during COVID. But I did date some and we did like for the guys who were interested in getting together like I did a lot of walking dates. I did Park dates were one guy that I went out with, he was so cute. He was a very nice guy. There wasn't chemistry for me, but he was a very sweet man. And I still think about this date. He met me at a park a local park and brought this incredible charcuterie spread, bought a bottle of wine. And I'm not just talking about open up the plastic container that he picked up from bonds. This was like nice cheese and artists and crackers and the grapes and the strawberries and put together this incredible spread. And we had a nice conversation there was just unfortunately, not everything was there for me. But so yeah, get creative. I mean that I love that.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
That's a beautiful story. It also illustrates Laurie something that I feel, which is, even if the someone is not partner material, you can have this beautiful experience. And our life is basically a series of experiences and to have those experiences. I mean, one of my favorite dates is with a guy who I basically thought he was too short for me. And I wanted to give him a chance because he was so kind and nice when I met him on a hike. And by our third, fifth date, I went to his house for dinner. And he had this magical hut in his backyard. It was up a hill filled with music, pillows, candles, etherial music playing, and it was just gorgeous. And it was just a magical evening and it was mystic in the night. And it was oh, it was just exquisite. And I really wanted to like him. It made ifor like him. And in the end. I just could do it. Yeah. But I would never have had that experience. And that's the kind of thing that filled me up as I was dating. Having wonderful experiences with people even though I wasn't going to continue with them.
Laurie James
Yeah, that's a beautiful perspective. Did you ever at any point through this process that you said it was two and a half years, right? Any point in the process where you were just like I'm done, I can't do this anymore. And because going on 50 dates, 51st dates? I mean, that's a lot of vulnerability, that's putting yourself out there girl.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Yeah, and I did get discouraged. Let's see. I'm trying to think of what caused this. But right in the middle, I thought, I'm not choosing well, or I've just started to wonder if this was really going to work. You probably as I do believe in visioning and having a vision board. And remember, I was trying not to have a list. So I didn't. I was trying to develop my list, but I hadn't quite developed it. And I was feeling like I'm not sure where I'm going with this. So I at that point took another class. It was a class via a relationship coach who gives other workshops. It's in my book, that's another organization.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And the course was called for singles who want to be in a relationship. That was me. And she gave me, it was a telephone class we were all on the telephone. We didn't see each other but we just on the telephone is presumed. Yeah, but she gave us such great information. And she had to start with what we love about ourselves and make a vision of ourselves and our best self. And so I had to recenter back to that. What do I love about myself? And what do I love it? Why am I a great partner? What? What do I have to offer partners instead of what do I want? But what do I have to offer a partner? And so there was that. And then after we had really grounded ourselves in what we love about ourselves and put up lists around the house about ourselves, then we started imagining what kind of partner we would like. It had to be connected with, what would we do for somebody else, not just what they would do for us.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And one important part of that, that she, there was a key that I hadn't thought of is, what do you love about being single? And how can you incorporate that into your vision of a relationship. And that was so key for me, because by then I actually was enjoying being single, I've been single most of my life, so I know how to do it. And I was having all this fun, I just wasn't sure it was gonna lead anywhere.
Laurie James
What do you remember what your answer was, or anything that you want, you're comfortable sharing here.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
I can share if you don't want, if you read my book, you'll find out that I was very sexual with a lot of my dates, mainly because I knew a lot of them already. And I was felt safe with them. And I had in my 40's, I vowed that I was going to be sexual, even if I didn't have a partner. So I was used to being sexual. As I was dating, I had actually acquired a few lovers who are not going to be my partner, but who are really good support physically and sexually for me, because I could always turn to them, and be with them. And I didn't have to put that pressure on my dates. And so I realized I was I like to be sexual with other people. And so that went into the singles part. And also, it has to do with freedom. It had to do with, I'm very independent. I like going where I want doing what I want, I'm going to see how that fits in a relationship. And I have to say, I ended up with a man who was very sexual, and who was very great at letting me understand that I needed time alone, time space, independence, doing things without him. And so it really, I was glad I put that in there. Into the vision.
Laurie James
Now, I love that. And it is so important. And we do need to do that in our work as we are going through this process. And that's what I focus on a lot in my six week course is overcoming our beliefs, but also what are our values and what are values of the partner that we want. And sometimes we can think about that ahead of time. But what I found is like you that sometimes you can have a general idea, but also be flexible, as you go out there and experience and date and you're like, okay, I thought that was important to me, but maybe it's a little bit different. It's maybe not x, it's x plus or x minus whatever that thing is. So we have to be flexible and malleable through the process of dating, because we can think what we really want, but until you really experience it, for sure.
Laurie James
And I totally get the freedom thing because that was important to me, too. I love my girlfriends, I love my alone time too, and doing things with my girlfriends. And what we talked about earlier, that female tribe that was really important piece that I was missing many years ago. And now I have this wonderful group of women who are just so supportive and so loving, and it feels very special. When you can find that. And it is work, that's work, too. But yeah, then just circling back, that self care, and that inner knowing, doing that inner work is so important for us to really set ourselves up for success.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Yes, it's an inside job. It's a lot of loving yourself, because we can't project out who we are. If we don't love ourselves, we can't be looking for someone else to love us instead. That's it's so important than having that group of people or at least just one good friend who really is a positive support for you.
Laurie James
Yeah, yeah, very, very, important. So you are very comfortable in your own skin, you're comfortable with your own sexuality. Were you always that way? Or was that kind of a learned skill for you? Because I know that that's something that I have struggled with through my life. And I over time, have done work around this and feel more comfortable with it, but I probably still struggle with it too to this day. What advice do you have for women who might be sitting here in their 50 ish or maybe even 60s going oh my god who is going to want to see this body with this saggy skin or with my stretch marks or my scars? All of those things?
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Wow, well first of all, I just want to address that fear. I really believe as older women that there are older men out there who want exactly us who want you, and that there's somebody for everybody. There's older men who are more or less sexual who are more into or not into appearances, who appreciate women, older women. And that's who you want to find, um, you don't need someone who is looking for something else. And all you need is one. So don't feel bad about whatever the statistics are, don't even listen to them. All you need is one. And you and I have both found great partners I know. And who knew that they were out there, but they were to me, because we looked. And I have friends who have found their partners older, as older women, and went men, basically, who will appreciate older women and their bodies. That's one thing, because, but for us being comfortable in our own bodies, and I also want to say you don't have to be sexual when you're dating. That was a choice I made a long time ago. I've been very sexual since my 20s. But I did want to say, I feel so lucky. I did not have any trauma in my background. And so for me, I know I've had an easier path accepting my body and being sexual. And I just want to encourage people who are who have sexual trauma in their background to really work on that in therapy to heal that in some way. And there's there healing books and people out there.
Laurie James
And programs and great therapists out there. Yeah, cause I definitely did a lot of work around that person with myself.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Yeah, I mean, that would have to be done. Because again, that the guy can't heal you. You have to heal yourself.
Laurie James
Yeah, I'm gonna wait, say that one more time.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
The guy can't heal you. Yeah, you have to heal yourself. Yeah. And I think I don't know, I'm not a psychologist. But I think we pick people who replicate situations in our lives until we heal that.
Laurie James
Absolutely. And ask any therapist out there.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
That to your question about how I became comfortable. I mean, there were two key things in my life, though, but I was part of a feminist women's clinic in the 70s in Berkeley, and we were all about exploring our bodies and our sexuality and looking into our cervices and stuff. So that was an opening time and I started going to nude beaches, then in the 70s, I guess I just had that urge to be open and free and experimented with it was a pre aids type, it was safe to be a lot of very experimental sexually. Then the other part of my history is that because of I was in this fervent feminist atmosphere, I decided I was a lesbian. And I wanted to be a lesbian, and I could be a lesbian, I was attracted to women. So I spent the next 18 years identifying as a lesbian, mostly being with women, a few men and women are great people to be with to be sexual with because we were all comfortable with our bodies. And so that was a great experience.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And then by the time I decided that I'd never found the perfect woman partner, probably because I didn't know how to do a relationship. But I went back to men in my 40s. And men had been sexist and boring in my 20s. In my 40s, they were interesting. And almost feminists, they'd been through feminist marriages. And they'd been through the struggles. And they were very interesting. And I was very attractive them and I wanted to be sexual with them. And, and so I did, I'm just trying to think how I felt comfortable with that. I guess I just was coming out of a very sexual life. But then the thing that really clinched it for me in my 40s, and 50s, was going to personal growth workshops about intimacy and sexuality, and find and having workshops in which we, we took off our clothes, and got naked, to just not to be sexual, but to show people's bodies to get how people accept each other's bodies. And see, this is what a real body looks like. It's not the ones in the magazine, this is who we are. It was not a sexual exercise it was for really just accepting our bodies.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And then we did learn things about sexuality, which was a lot about communication, a lot about being feel in our own boundaries, learning our own boundaries, like not being sexual until you feel safe with somebody. And going back to the feeling safe question. One of the ways I felt safe was I mainly picked men from who had gone to those workshops. So I knew that they had the same communication tools that I did, and would respect my no, because we had low learn to respect people's know, by doing really cool exercises, like getting into one person in the middle and the men out on the corner and say, how far away should they go? How close can they step?
Laurie James
What's interesting about that exercise is I've done training somatic train. And that's an exercise we learned in our somatic.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
It's so visceral. I thought I was good at saying no already. But until I was able to tell a man I didn't really like that much to say farther away and to see him accepting that the power of that, yeah, I had the power to make him stay and he would stay. It made me confident for all of my dating. So to me, it was natural to be able to say yes or no. One thing we learned in the workshop is every second, you get a second chance, you can always change. If you're in a situation, you could always change your mind. Should I tell the story of my first date? My date number one was a date with one neighbor. So he hadn't been to these workshops that I was pretty comfortable with him. So I can't went over to use the sauna. The date was to use the sauna in his house. And I was used to being naked because I went to nude beaches, and we did the sauna.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And then we got out, then we started sitting on the couch and kissing. And this was just perfect. That's just exactly what I felt like doing. And it was very sweet. And then he said, oh, I want to make love with you. And I said, I actually was surprised that he thought of that, because I thought, wait a minute, I'm just here do sauna and kiss. I couldn't believe that. He thought of that. But of course, of course, he had that assumption, and had 10 years of workshops that kind of had separated out naked from sexual. We can get naked doesn't imply being sexual. So I was used to that. He wasn't to me, or him being naked with a woman at night an tells us about sex. So I said, Oh, no, no, I'm just comfortable doing this. I'd like to just kiss and maybe stroke your face a little bit, would that be okay? And he said, well, it won't be okay. Except if we do that I can't stop. I won't be able to stop.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And I really, so he looked at me, like he expected me to say, Oh, okay. And I said, Well, I guess I need to go there. Because I can't do that. I'm not gonna do that. And so it was natural for me to I felt completely assured, I knew he would respect what I said, I mean, he had to, he asked few times. But I said, no, thank you, you know, I need to leave, it's time to go. So I got up and put my clothes on and laughed. And we later became good friends. But it was that knowing that it's even though you're in a what looks like a very sexual situation, it's okay to say no. It's okay because if you're not feeling safe, or you're not feeling right, but at that point, I just wasn't. I wasn't ready for him or for anyone, actually. So it was I was just saying my truth at that time. And so getting to have experiences where you can express your truth, especially about boundaries, is what made me feel safe. Because the best you can say yes to sexuality, if you know how to say no, if you know that you can say no, anytime.
Laurie James
Right. And I think for women who have been raised in our era, you're a little bit older than me, we weren't always given that right to say, no. You grew up, or you spent a lot of time at North in a feminist environment. So you learned that, but for a lot of women, they aren't comfortable saying no. And they think going on a date is about trying to figure out if they like you, not if we like them. And that's one of the things I talk about in my course, we should be assessing like you had talked about also, is this person right for me. And I think we talked about one of your experiences. And I don't think a lot of women still at our age, look at dating that way. It's Yes, we have a say in this. We're 50% of this date, 50% of this potential relationship, whatever it is, we get a say in that.
Laurie James
But I also want to go back and touch on something else you said as it comes to safety. Because I know some people that might be listening, and I know for me personally, I didn't always know what feeling safe in while dating was like, because I didn't have that templated for me as a child. What was it for you that and I know part of it is setting boundaries. But even before that, how did you get in touch with yourself enough to like, do I feel safe with this person? Do I not?
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Well, first of all, I think it takes practice. And I got a lot of practice in those workshops. Because we did a lot of exercises of choosing people and saying yes or no of boundaries with people yes or no then talking about sexuality before we did it like teaching people how to have a safe sex conversation very important to go through people's sexual histories. And what there any corrosion issues they have, and how you're going to protect yourself from those diseases or pregnancy or mainly on our age with those diseases and then sticking with that. And so having that like a little test for the dates, if they can't sit still for a talk like that, then I don't think you'd probably want to be with them. So some of it is the test and taking baby steps with each person and seeing what the if they're comfortable with what you are wanting to do or not do.
Laurie James
Even the conversation itself. Because that was definitely something that I had to learn through this last process of dating is, what does feel safe and how do I know that? And that's really tapped in. Does my, you know, what I talk about is does my soul feel safe with this person.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
That is a great question. We might all have a different answer to that. But it's very important to ask. And I think it takes practice. I had some one situation, to actually two guys I met, I went to a dance place a freeform dance place on Friday nights, and everyone just danced by themselves. And I met a few dates that way. And one of them, one guy was just so enamored with him. And he was so cute and so sweet and so fun. I wanted to take them home that night. And I might have known but I didn't know if actually, I knew friends of friends. He wasn't a stranger completely. But I thought, okay, Carolyn, why don't you just put brakes on this and have a Sunday lunch date instead.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And so I had him come to my house since we had friends in common and I knew who he was. But at that letter, I realized I didn't like him at all. And so I had to put the brakes on myself that in that way, and we all have different lives. Like another guy, I really liked to cuddle with somebody and a guy I met dancing. He was from out of town. So he had a van that he parked and slept in, in the in the parking lot of the dance place. And so I asked, I think I asked if we could just cuddle in his van. And we did. And somehow I felt safe doing that on the streets of Berkeley. Instead of bringing him to my house, he didn't go to my house for like months. But because I felt safer just in the van. And I don't know that. I don't know about if the streets of Berkeley or any safer than my house. But that was my choice. That was ways I was careful. But as I said, a lot of the men I already knew and had seen them in workshops and see how they interacted and how respectful or not that when there were some that I didn't like in the workshops, and I didn't take them. So I had to like everybody who I date.
Laurie James
Right. Of course. And I think you touched on something that's really important as it becomes to safety as if somebody's going on a first date with somebody. And it's how respectful are they to the waiter? Or to the waitress? To the hostess, or to the barista wherever you are, how respectful is he to other people around you, because that he might be respectful to you and not to them. But he will eventually then not be respectful to you. He's putting his best foot forward.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Yes, those first dates are kind of tests, and they are kind of interviews. And that's why looking at is a research project, gather the data and then analyze it. What are you seeing? What is happening?
Laurie James
Yeah, and be the observer versus immersing yourself and really just opening up your heart to the first person that expresses interest in you.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
I let the other men know also that I was dating other people, too. That was important to know. And well, actually, I didn't if they were, I just had the one date. But if I was going to see them again, I would say by the way, I'm just a project and I'm dating a lot of other people. And that helped both me and them to know what prospective was. And as I said before, that goal also kept me kind of safe, because I could keep going back to, what am I trying to do here? Moving on?
Laurie James
Yeah, so communication is super important. Honesty and communication. Love that. So as we come to a close, what's a confession that you'd like to make, you may have are touched on it already that may be something that we haven't talked about or something you want to go a little deeper into, as we come to a close here.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Okay, well, I'm going to stick with what I think is a confession because you don't see it my book. I cried a lot during the stadium project. I cried. I came home a cry from a lot of dates. And I did not put all of the crying in the book. But because I took good care of myself. There were times like, what there was one guy that I thought would be the perfect partner. I don't know why I did because he was on drugs. And he was kind of catatonic and he was like, but he kept but he was a businessman, and he was a feminist and he was spiritual. So I thought he would be great. And I kept saying, I think we'd be great partners. He said, I'm not ready to be a partner with anybody. And I said, But you're the main scene for me. And he said, I don't even have a scene. And I couldn't hear him. I really he was telling me he was being honest. You know, we say that men don't tell us how they feel, they do often do. We just sometimes don't listen.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
We choose not to listen, right?
Laurie James
Yeah, exactly. And he was being very clear that he wasn't ready to be a partner. He was having dating with me, but he was not ready. I kept saying that would be great partners. So I finally heard him and he was not going to be a partner. I went home and cried. And it was a big, deep cry. And I needed to reach out to a friend and get soothed by my women friends and even my ex boyfriend gotten no help me. But yeah, it wasn't the right guy.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
And one of the things I like to say too, is as hard as that is in that situation when you think somebody's the right partner. I think your point yes, one listen. Listen, when somebody tells you who they are. Listen, I mean, I think that's the famous Oprah line right? And second, when it doesn't work out, they're doing you a favor, even though it hurts, even though it's sad, even though we come home and cry which I have many times come home and curled up and no a ball on my bed after dates too. But we need to cry and allow that release. So that way we can move through our emotions somatically we can move through our emotions. And then when we feel ready, then we can put ourselves out there again.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Yes exactly. Feeling it is so important. And then not staying it, not assuming that means we shouldn't be dating. That's why the goal helped me to get up the next day and say, where's my next date? How are we going to get my next date? And that's what helped me. And so overall, when I look back when I was in it, even though I was crying a lot, I felt like it was a fun project. And it was a lot because of the momentum that I had.
Laurie James
Carolyn, thank you so much for being here with me and sharing your book with us. Where can people find this wonderful book Fifty First Book After Fifty.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
It is on Amazon. And any independent bookstore can order it, it's wherever you find books, it's also it's in a Kindle. It's in ebook form wherever you get your ebooks and it's also an audio with me reading it. I love recording last year, and it was a fun thing to do.
Laurie James
And if somebody wants to stay connected with you and receive your blogs, how can they do that.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
You can go to my website, which is carolynleearnold.com and look around my website for where to buy the book, or I have a lot of blogs about dating. So you can go to my blog page. And eventually there'll be a pop up that asks you if you want to join my newsletter. And if you do, I will send you my detailed I have 10 dating tips on a blog, but I have detailed dating tips 10 of them to send out.
Laurie James
Love that and all of that information will be in the show notes.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
I'm also in Instagram and Facebook author. So you'll have that all.
Laurie James
All of that will be in the show notes. I'll make sure that people can access that. Thank you again for being here and sharing your very personal stories with us. I know it's going to help many.
Carolyn Lee Arnold
Oh, you're welcome, Laurie, you're great to talk too. I can see why you're a great coach, a great leader. So thank you for having me. Great to talk to you.
Laurie James
Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions of a FreeBird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a free bird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at laurieejames.com to learn how we can work together or to sign up for my newsletter. So you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe, rate, and review. And share it with friends so they can find more freedom in their second or third also. Until next time.