Laurie James
Welcome to Confessions of a Freebird Podcast. I'm your host, Laurie James, a mother, divorcee, a recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go, a therapy junkie, relationship coach, somatic healer, and now podcaster. I'm a free spirit and here to lift you up. On this podcast, I'll share soulful confessions, and empowering conversations with influential experts. So you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half. So pop in those earbuds, turn up the volume, and let's get inspired because my mission is to help you create your most joyful, purpose driven life. One confession at a time.
Laurie James
Hey, there Freebirds. Before we get started with today's guest, I have one announcement and two confessions. My announcement is check out the show notes if you're looking for information on somatic healing. I have a great beginner's guide that I just created. The beginner's guide to somatic healing. And it gives you some great information so you can learn how to regulate your nervous system. And before we dive into my conversation, my confession is twofold. I realized that this podcast is coming right after I dropped four episodes on dating, which is a little backwards, but that's okay.
Laurie James
And my second confession is, I wish I would have come across my guest today when I was going through my divorce five and a half years ago, because I would have hired her in a heartbeat. My guest today is Kate Anthony. She is the author of The D Word: Making the Ultimate Decision about Your Marriage. She's the host of the critically acclaimed in New York Times recommended podcast, The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast, and the creator of a wonderful online program called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Which is a question that I asked myself, hopefully a hundred times before I finally left my marriage. Her program helps women make this very difficult decision using coaching tools, relationship education, geeky neuroscience, community support, and deep self work. She's also a certified domestic violence advocate, a co-parenting specialist, and a high conflict divorce coach. So welcome, Kate, thank you so much for being here today. And thank you for all the great work that you're doing out there in the world of divorce and domestic violence.
Kate Anthony
Thank you for having me.
Laurie James
Yeah, can you start by telling our listeners how you fell into this divorce industry, divorce world, and domestic violence arena?
Kate Anthony
Well, as I think with most people, it was my own experience getting divorced, and going through recovering from an abusive marriage, and just trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life after divorce, partly as well. So it's just, you know, a confluence of things that brought me here in terms of the domestic violence stuff, I really did not set out to do as much domestic violence work, as I thought I didn't anticipate how much I was going to be doing. And it was partly because of my experience, but also partly because of the overwhelming need, the number of women that this was part of their story and this was what they were going through and what they needed. And I got tired of saying to people, you get to call your domestic local agency. For information on that, I'm not a domestic violence expert so, you're gonna have to call. And then, I got sick of that. And I was like, alright, I'm gonna become an expert and get trained in this and certified in this so that I can actually help people directly. Because the shelters are overrun. And there are questions that I can answer now that I couldn't before. So you don't have to go calling for an advocate at your local shelter that is completely overrun at this point.
Laurie James
Yeah. And I don't want to spend too much time on this. But you and a couple other women have created a Domestic Violence Coalition. Can you just speak to that a little bit more about what you guys are doing? Because I commend you for doing this. I know domestic violence is up. It was starting to trend up before COVID definitely went up even higher during COVID and it's still up.
Kate Anthony
Yep, it is an absolute epidemic. So the divorce coalition, really I think what we're focusing on is court reform. And there are a lot of people doing this work and I'm on the advisory board, I actually am not in the trenches with the coalition right now, just because I don't have the time and the bandwidth to. So I've really lent my name to it and participating in an advisory standpoint, as opposed to actually boots on the ground doing the work with them, just because I don't have the space. But listen, Family Court Reform should be one of our most pressing priorities right now. The stories that come out of family court right now are because family court judges and attorneys are not required to have zero training in domestic violence, advocacy, or recognizing the signs of domestic violence. So it's absurd that they're making decisions about the lives of children.
Laurie James
Without even having any knowledge or training around it.
Kate Anthony
That's right. And mostly getting it wrong. And putting women and children's lives in danger.
Laurie James
Because they're following the rule of the law. Thank you for sharing that tidbit. I just wanted to touch on that. Because I think it's a really important topic that if you haven't been touched by some type of domestic violence in your life, you probably know somebody who has in terms of the listeners we all have, unfortunately.
Kate Anthony
Unfortunately. And people are not talking about it so you also may not know it. But trust us if have.
Laurie James
So much shame around it. So you just wrote this book, The D Word, which I absolutely love. And I think it is going to help so many women out there. Where did this idea come from?
Kate Anthony
Really, ultimately, it is an answer to all of the frequently asked questions that I get. And just to be able to be like, here, all of your questions are answered here. So it really is a download of it would have been great if I could have just plugged in a little USB drive to my brain and spit it out into a book, it would have been a really messy, chaotic book. But it is an organized download of my brands.
Laurie James
And very beautifully organized might I say, because I have taken a look at it. And I wanted to just start with something that you wrote in the introduction, if you don't mind. And as a start to our conversation, it says, this book is my antidote to when you know, you'll know, which I hated when my therapist said that.
Kate Anthony
I know and they're right, but also not helpful. I'm asking you a question for a reason.
Laurie James
Exactly. This book is a guide to your personal truth and clarity. This book is for the reader who's in the depths of despair going through the most painful transition of her life. And she's paralyzed with fear and desperate for answers. This book is for the reader, who is simply questioning her marriage as well and wondering if there's perhaps something better out there. And I love that introduction, because just reading that put me back to when I was in that place, and it's an awful place to be. So what would you like to add to that if a listener is in that place right now?
Kate Anthony
One of the things I'll say that I do talk about in the introduction is that you get to choose. You actually get to choose women are overwhelmingly feel that they actually don't get to choose their entire lives, they made it to first of all, they made this bed, so they're gonna have to lay in it. And secondly, that we sacrifice and sacrifice and the idea that we get to have needs, and that what we want or desire, even matters, that we actually get to be happy, is what's right. And so it's really this permission piece that when I'm in my podcast outro I say, you my love deserve to be happy. And the number of women who tell me that every time they hear me say that they cry, or their shoulders just relax. And it's so sad. That is such a profound statement that women are like, that makes them cry. Like, I love that I touched them in that way. But I also hate that it's that profound.
Laurie James
Yeah. And I can remember being in that place. I can remember sitting in therapy and asking myself that I have a choice. I can be happy.
Kate Anthony
And also I think for women in this position, right, very often it's well, but maybe I'm just a miserable person. Right? Like, how do I know if it's them in this marriage is making me miserable? Or if it's just me, I'm just a miserable person.
Laurie James
So how do we decide?
Kate Anthony
Yes, will you read my book because it's all in there. But you know, we start with doing the self work, we start with healing ourselves in ways that are meaningful for ourselves and then seeing if that still aligned, I was just talking to Ellie Hartwood, she runs here thing is just the attachment nerd. And we're talking about how, first of all, attach ourselves are not fixed, right? They're not static. And your attachment style can change with different people in your life, you can have a more secure attachment with somebody with whom you feel more, more secure, right, you can have a more disorganized attachment. If you're in a relationship with someone with disorganized attachment, you will become far more disorganized.
Kate Anthony
And so this idea that we can seek, we have to do the work on ourselves, right? Sure. I'm going to heal, I'm going to work on my attachment, which is my childhood trauma, all of those things. But if I'm continuing to be in a relationship with somebody who is avoidant, or disorganized, which most abusers are, then I am going to continue to be anxious. But that's not because I have some problem. It's because the relationship I'm in is causing anxiety in me, I don't feel safe in this relationship. But if I feel safe in other relationships, in particular, my relationship with my therapist or my coach, because that's where we create the healthy container of love and safety. But if I'm capable of feeling safe in lots of other places in my life, then possibly my lack of feeling safe or happy is not on me. It's the relationship that I met.
Laurie James
And if you're happy in other areas of your life, whether it's your personal life, your career, if you work outside the home, all of those other areas. But the other thing that I want to say on the attachment style, too, is what I have found through my own personal relationship. You can have all those different attachment styles within your marriage at various times. There were times when I felt secure in my marriage. It might have been my own idealistic thoughts but there was a period of time when I did feel secure in my marriage. But then there was times when I felt very anxious. Then there were times when I felt very avoidant. And there were times I felt this very disorganized. So yes, all of those things can be true.
Kate Anthony
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. So we got to do the work on ourselves to figure out like, where we are and if what tends to happen as you begin a healing journey, if you're in an unhappy relationship, and you're not sure if it's abusive, you're not sure but there's something that's not working. As you begin to heal yourself, first of all, your partner should be really interested in your healing journey. Should I actually want to how can I help? What can I do? How can you create this relationship to foster your growth and healing and mine? Right? So if they are resistant to or threatened by your growth and healing, that's a really big red flag. And if you start to grow and change, and then you start to feel increasingly like this relationship. I no longer fit in this puzzle, I no longer fit. I now have a level of self-esteem or self knowledge and sense of self, that every time I walk into my home, I shrink from the person I've been all day. That's a red flag.
Laurie James
Or you feel like you have to walk on eggshells. As soon as the door opens.
Kate Anthony
That's right. You don't know who's gonna walk in the door, and you're like, oh God.
Laurie James
Next version is coming home tonight.
Kate Anthony
That's right. And none of that is okay. And so the more you shore up your sense of self, the more you'll have a better perspective. And you'll start to see more clearly what's actually happening in your relationship, definitely.
Laurie James
And also, I think it's important to just note here that there's no timeframe on this. For some people, it might take longer, and for other people, they might know sooner. And don't beat yourself up for that because that's something that I did. I was like, god dammit, I should know sooner. Like why can't I make a decision on this? That's because I was caring for my elderly parents. I was raising four teenage daughters, and my mom was on hospice, but I still beat myself up at times about that. I should know, I should have a decision. And it's okay to give it the time that it needs.
Kate Anthony
Absolutely. And listen, in your case, right? Just basic decision fatigue, every single day you were making thousands of decisions for other people. And when you are not prioritizing yourself, and in many ways that was completely appropriate and what had to be done, there's no way that you're going to be able to be making a decision about your marriage, at the end of the day, when you're trying to get four teenagers through whatever and trying to make sure your mother doesn't die, and all of the things right, and you not taking care of yourself landed you in the hospital. These are things that we have to learn, we talked about this, we have to learn to prioritize ourselves. Even in the face of I'm trying to keep my mother alive, and my kids from off the streets or whatever it is, right? When you've got teenagers, like they're all these things like also you're no good to anybody. When you've had a complete physical and emotional breakdown, and you're in the hospital.
Laurie James
And as we've talked about before, it's that emotional, self care. I was exercising, I wasn't sleeping great but I was exercising, I was working out. I do all those things as part of my daily routine, but it was the emotional self-care that had fallen short. And so I think there's a distinct difference there. So what about that person that might be listening that is just like, yeah, my marriage is fine, what do you want to say to that person?
Kate Anthony
A couple of things? Is that what you want? You want to live a fine life like, and look, I'm not into toxic positivity. I'm not into the idea that we should all live like rich, juicy, I think that's total BS. And I think that most people who are telling you that that every second of their day is like this exciting adventure, or it's rich and juicy, or whatever the hell language they're using around it. I call BS. That's just not life. And are you settling? And are you okay, with settling? So there's that. The other piece of it is, often when I get under the surface of these relationships that people say are fine. They're really not. They're really not. And I think that we have been conditioned women in particular, we've been so conditioned to think that things that are really not acceptable, are just kind of the way that we should just do that. We should just handle that we should just get out and be okay with that.
Laurie James
Back up, suck it up, go along with it, whatever it is. Because that's what we might be told or also, there might be the person of if I divorce, that means I get half of everything. And my life is a little more comfortable now. And I might have to get uncomfortable. And I think that's one of the things that keeps people in marriage that's just fine, too. So can we talk a little bit about emotional abuse?
Kate Anthony
Yes, please. My favorite topic. I love it.
Laurie James
So what does that look in your terms and all the women that you've worked with? What is emotional abuse look like? What are the signs that somebody should be looking out for?
Kate Anthony
I think it's important first to let's talk about what's a healthy relationship. And we look at what does it look like, right? And I think the more important question to ask is, what's it feel like? Rather than reinvent the wheel, can I read what I wrote about this in my book? So what would a healthy relationship model look like? I think it's important first to ask what it feels like. A relationship should first and foremost feel safe. You should feel emotionally, spiritually, financially, psychologically and physically safe with your partner. You should feel safe to be exactly who you are at any time. You should feel safe to have and express your feelings and opinions and you should feel safe expressing concerns within your relationship to your partner.
Kate Anthony
All relationships have conflicts but how conflict is handled and repaired is what determines the health of a relationship. You should be able to compromise and negotiate. You don't have to agree on everything but everyone's feelings should be considered valid. In a healthy relationship arguments are ended with compromise and authentic communication. You should allow your concerns to bring you closer, opening up space to learn more about one another. There's a lot more that I say here, but at the end of the day, there's respect for privacy and space, right? At the end of the day, it should feel safe.
Laurie James
But here's the thing for those of us out there that didn't have that templated for us as a child.
Kate Anthony
Sure. That's right. We don't know what that means, right?
Laurie James
What is safe feel like if you've never been able to.
Kate Anthony
Right. Which is why I outlined, right, which is why outline to respect for privacy and space, you should be able to keep your journal on your bedside table. And no, it won't be read, right? In a healthy relationship, you should feel comfortable going out with friends without repercussions or arguments, you should have multiple sources of emotional nourishment. You should have friends, therapists or coaches who support you outside the marriage and relationships with friends and family should be encouraged and facilitated. A healthy relationship should have clear communication, clear boundaries, trust and consent, there should be bodily autonomy, right? So I list in the book, all of the ways, all of the things that it should look like for it to feel safe. In case we do have that, that that screw a little bit loose.
Laurie James
But that's beautiful and that's important because defining that, then gives you structure of okay, how many of these do I check off? How many of those are noes? And how many of those are yeses?
Kate Anthony
So literally, in the book, I have a healthy relationship checklist. And I can actually provide that to your listeners, if you want. I actually have a PDF download of the healthy relationship checklist. This is a checklist and you tally up your yeses. You tally up your noes. And if you have more yeses, the noes and you're probably in a healthy relationship. If you have a lot more than like, well, you're off to the races. It's great. If you have more nose than yeses, it's possibly unhealthy. If you have a lot more noes than yeses, it's probably abusive. I do have this checklist. So I will send that to you so that your listeners can have it.
Laurie James
Yeah. Thank you. I love that. Because even if somebody is in a marriage, who might not be thinking about divorce, I think that's just a beautiful checklist to go through of, okay, let me check in on my relationship. Where do I stand? That's beautiful. So I'm going to go in a little bit different direction. Do you feel like the word narcissist is overused?
Kate Anthony
No, actually, I don't.
Laurie James
I feel like a lot of people have thrown that word out there.
Kate Anthony
It became a buzzword a couple of years ago, for sure. I addressed this in my book, too, because I think that many things are true at the same time. Number one, I think that we are now learning to recognize the signs of narcissism, and we're talking narcissistic traits, right? So narcissism is a spectrum, there is healthy self-image on one end, right? Totally benign. And then it goes all the way through the spectrum of people who are a little bit more just like self involved, and they every time you have a conversation with them, it just they just immediately turn it on themselves, right? They're not hearing you. They're just how do you relate to me.
Kate Anthony
And then you go further on the spectrum, and you've got more malignant narcissistic behavior. These are people who are really just trying to get their self-esteem and their self-image improved by attaching themselves to you and they're using you. They're like a vampire. And they'll often cheat on you or abuse you because you're not holding up your end of the quote, bargain, in terms of actually improving their sense of self because it's not your job.
Kate Anthony
And then further on the spectrum, we have narcissistic personality disorder, and 2-5% of the population or something like that gets diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. However, most people with narcissistic personality disorder aren't going into any kind of treatment to get diagnosed. So very often, if they are diagnosed, it's because they went in for substance use disorder, they went in to treatment for something else. So I think a lot more people with narcissistic personality disorder out there, then are diagnosed. I also believe that we live in a culture that celebrates narcissistic traits and narcissism, from reality shows to politicians, this behavior is very much rewarded. And our culture I think creates this, particularly in men. And I say that, not to disparage men, but because it's true. And it's also not good for men.
Laurie James
But, yeah, from research shows that men have a tendency to be more narcissistic than women.
Kate Anthony
That's right. And part of that is our societal constraints that are societal constructs that raise men to be more entitled than women. We live in a patriarchy. That's just the deal. That's the soup. The water is woman. And certainly since 2015, I think it's been more obvious. We've had certain public figures that have demonstrated very clearly what this looks like and what you're talking about. And here we go again, thanks, Iowa. But we can see it in stark relief. And then we're going, oh, wow, that looks a lot like my husband or, and then they're eating up this behavior, right. So there's a lot in our culture that has brought this awareness of it. It's like, oh, now I can name this thing. I get it. Now I have a name for this. And it hurts and it's not comfortable. And I don't like it. And so I don't think we're overusing it. I think we're finally able to name it.
Laurie James
And yeah, because I felt that two, three years ago, I felt that overuse, that maybe it's starting to settle do.
Kate Anthony
And by the way, I was very much of the mind of like, everyone has to stop using that word. If they're not diagnosed, you can't use it, like my husband was diagnosed in therapy. So I was like, I get to call him that, but set a lot of good agenda anyway. But the point is, that I changed my mind on it, because I was like, no, actually, I think you're right. I think what you're describing, look, there are a lot of people with narcissistic traits. We can name that. If you're in a relationship with someone with narcissistic traits, you know, it has been diagnosed.
Laurie James
And it's a spectrum. And if somebody chooses to stay in that relationship, I think there's even more information out there of, okay, I'm choosing to stay in this relationship, how to stay in a relationship with somebody like that, if that's what they're choosing to do.
Kate Anthony
Sure. I don't know why you would want to stay in a relationship with someone that was like that. But first of all, look, it depends on what you want out of a relationship, right? If you want intimacy, and closeness and emotional connection, you're not going to get that with a narcissist. You're just not. If you value maybe the lifestyle that you're living, above emotional intimacy and closeness and connection, which, by the way, absolutely zero judgment, right? Because we all have different values. And if you value, lifestyle, money, or whatever it the lifestyle affords you more than you do intimacy, then your like, wonderful, more power to listen, choose it powerfully, but know what you're getting. Know what you're signing up for. Listen, don't spend your life trying to change them because they can't change. We try so hard, and then we are left with no with nothing right, then we are a shell of ourselves. We're in the hospital. Yep, we have nothing left.
Laurie James
And we need other people now all of a sudden to take care of us. Which I don't recommend that.
Kate Anthony
You recommend that path. It doesn't work. It's not good for you.
Laurie James
Definitely not. So I haven't looked at this section. And you probably have it in your book too. But we talked about gaslighting.
Kate Anthony
Oh yes, we can. Of course I have it in my book. Yes. Let's talk about gas lighting. So gas lighting. Merriam Webster's word of 2022. So clearly there is again with the cultural understanding. It was the most searched word of 2022. And there's a reason for that. And it's not just because people are, again misidentifying it. And any way they're really, they're experiencing something and they don't know what it is. And then when they have a word for it they're like
Laurie James
Oh my God, this makes so much more sense.
Kate Anthony
Absolutely. And it now I don't feel crazy, right. And so gaslighting to be clear gaslighting is not lying. Gaslighting is lying for the specific purpose of having you doubt your own experience of reality.
Laurie James
So that way you will feel crazy. Eventually, if not right away, eventually.
Kate Anthony
Yes, that's right. You will feel crazy. If someone comes to you and says, oh my god, Laura, I love your purple hair. And you're like, I don't know what you're talking purple hair. For anyone listening who does not have purple hair. And then they're like, what are you talking about? Are you kidding? You don't see purple when you look at your like, is there something wrong with you? Have you ever been checked for colorblindness because your hair is literally purple. And they do this to you every single day, and then they're isolating you from people who are gonna be like, no, Laura, you're totally blonde. I don't know what he's talking about. He's crazy. And they're wondering you and making it like, eventually you're going to be looking in the mirror going, is that purple?
Laurie James
Oh my god, I think I see purple strands.
Kate Anthony
Oh, literally. And I know it sounds crazy. But that is what happens. And I've seen it with clients, it's terrifying, when they really do start to lose that grip on reality.
Laurie James
I've worked with clients that have been dealt with gaslighting, too. And it is and having had some of my own experiences of that as well.
Kate Anthony
Oh, absolutely. And by the way, it doesn't look like Lori have purple hair, it looks like my husband's favorite, right? He'd be triggered triggering me. He knows where my buttons are. And I'd say, I need time, I need space, just give me a minute and walk around the block. I'm triggered, I'm triggered. And then he goes in, and in, and in, and then I lose it, then.
Laurie James
Go ahead, go ahead, and walk away. Just go ahead and walk away from our conversation. See, how you are?
Kate Anthony
Right, or I explode all over the place and then, wow, you're crazy. You have an anger problem. And so now I think I have an anger problem. I don't have an anger problem. I was triggered. And I was asking for space, and I wasn't being given to me. But I start to be gaslight into thinking that, oh, I have an anger problem because I just exploded. It's very serious. And it becomes more serious when we really do start to lose our grip. Like I said, actually, losing your grip on reality is it looks like you're just now you can't think straight. Now, you don't know what the truth is about yourself and your relationship, you don't understand what's right, it's really hard.
Laurie James
And then that takes you even longer to get to a place where you can make a decision, should I stay? Or should I go? Which is their whole purpose?
Kate Anthony
That's right. That's exactly right. Hundred percent.
Laurie James
Let's say somebody has decided to move forward with a divorce, what are maybe two or three things that someone should know? Okay, I'm ready to tell my husband, I want a divorce.
Kate Anthony
Hmm. So the first thing you should do before you tell them that you want to divorce, you should probably do some due diligence first, right, you might want to have a consultation with an attorney or two, because you want to know what your rights are, you need to have information. I am not suggesting that you hire an attorney, I'm not suggesting that you put a retainer down immediately, I am suggesting that you learn your rights, especially if you're an abusive relationship, and you're ready to go, you have got to get and gather all the information that you can to combat the crazy stuff that's going to come out of their mouths in an effort to control you and keep you real back in.
Kate Anthony
If you have as many people do, had this conversation multiple times, and he won't let you. And he says no, all of that, right, you need to have information, the first of all, which is that one of the things they're gonna say to us, you can't do that I'm not allowing you, they don't actually get to say that. This is not a collaborative agreement that you're coming to, you are making a declaration for yourself, and you're drawing a line in the sand and you're saying I'm done. And there's no more and it doesn't matter what they say about and what you want is to be able to disarm when they say things like I'm gonna take the kids, you're never gonna see your kids again, I'm not giving you any money, and you're not gonna get anything in this divorce.
Kate Anthony
You want to have consulted an attorney so that you can look them and be like, okay, that's actually not how divorce works. But that's the deal. I'm sorry, that's actually not how divorce works in our state, you should probably not use those kinds of threats, right? You wanted to be able to kind of roll your eyes and be like, alright, I'm glad you think that's what you can do. But unfortunately, that's not how divorce works.
Kate Anthony
So anyway, there is a very specific structure that I lay out in my book and with scripts with how to have this conversation. The other thing you want to know you want to remember is that no matter how many times you've told this person that you're unhappy, no matter how many times you've said I want to divorce, and then they've maybe made a change or not made a change, or whatever it is, no matter how many times you've had this conversation, when you mean it. This will be news to them. They never think you're actually going to follow through and partly because you haven't.
Laurie James
Or you've tried and then you've reneged, for whatever.
Kate Anthony
That's right. You haven't followed through with it. They don't think that you're going to follow through or you've come back right, whatever it is, you have come back, and whatever their threats are, it's all worked. And so the first thing you need to understand is that this will be news to them. And you're gonna have to give them a minute. Right? You really need to give them some time. And this conversation should have one objective one objective only, which is to impart this piece of information, the first conversation you have about it is not about, you're not going to sort out any of the details.
Kate Anthony
When you're getting divorced, you're making the biggest legal and financial decisions of your life in the middle of the biggest emotional upheaval of your life. And while you are done, you're dropping a bomb on this other person. And as soon as they realize that you're actually serious, they're gonna panic. That is not a time to be deciding custody schedules, or who's keeping the house or about your 401k like rightnow.
Kate Anthony
So what you really want to do is approach this with empathy and kindness to be able to say, hey, listen, I don't want to make decisions right now, this is news to you. Why don't we just take a minute, I'm not doing anything, I'm not filing, I am not shutting down accounts. I'm not like nothing. That's not what I'm doing here. I just want you to know that this is where I'm at, we have a lot of big decisions to make. And I hope that we can move forward putting our kids at the center of all of the decisions that we make yada, yada, yada. But I just want you to know right now, that this is my decision, and we'll deal with the rest later. But as soon as you start being as soon as you'd like, because you're done, you're ready, you have been done for a long time. And now you want to like get it done, you're going to screw it up, you're going to screw the whole process by doing that. So slow down.
Laurie James
That's really great advice. And I think one of the other pieces of advice that I'll throw in there, too, because I left my marriage shortly before the holidays. And I waited until after the holidays, to tell my kids and my kids were adults at that time. But I think that's an important piece too, because you don't want your kids to associate certain things. Their birthday, Christmas, Thanksgiving of when they found out their parents were getting divorced, doesn't matter whether they're little kids, or adults, or even if you have grandchildren, whatever it is, that I think is really important. Because I know, people and I have clients who have been through that. And their kids have really struggled with that. It's just another little added piece there.
Kate Anthony
Absolutely. I blurted out that I wanted to divorce on Christmas Eve, and it made for the worst Christmas. And we had to assemble a toy kitchen. That night, after our son had gone to bed like it was a nightmare. The whole thing was a nightmare. And it also made Christmas for years, like a really dark time.
Laurie James
Yeah. Completely. I can see how that would be. So you left your marriage 14 years ago or so.
Kate Anthony
15 Yeah. 15.
Laurie James
How has it been for you on the other side?
Kate Anthony
It's been great. I mean, I'm a totally different person. I make my own decisions every single day, I'm not yelled at or criticized or made to feel like a piece of shit in my own home. I'm not constantly try to bed myself into pretzels to try to get someone else's love. I'm not begging someone to love me. And it just makes it a lot easier for my own self-esteem, and well being to grow. I could not grow my self-esteem when I was constantly being put down. So listen, there is no reason, you do deserve to be happy. And I'm really happy. And I'm not re-partnered, by the way. And I think that's a really important thing. A lot of people say, oh my god, am I going to be alone forever? And ya know, what I say is? I don't know, maybe. But the alternative is to be in this forever.
Laurie James
And I think that whether you end up with a partner, because I am partnered up, I've been with a boyfriend for two years. And he's wonderful. And he is a true partner. I don't feel like he cooks just as much as I do. And he'll pull out the vacuum and vacuum. It's been really beautiful. It's not perfect, but there's so many good things that outweigh the small little things. But I don't know about you, and I don't know what you say to your clients around this, but I felt like I had to be in a place of if I am alone for the rest of my life, I'm going to be okay. And if I do partner up, and I find somebody, that's great too, but I'm okay in this moment. Being alone.
Kate Anthony
That's right. And look when you first get out you may not be okay being alone, right.
Laurie James
You're anxious attachment style, maybe like pulling you towards.
Kate Anthony
Freaking out right and so you do need to take I would say a year or have just chill, just heal, just spend the time healing. And then you can begin to move forward, whatever. And when you start dating, you're gonna have a better picker. If you start right away, your picker is probably gonna be a bit trashed. So it's, look, I'm not willing to settle. And so I know who I am now. And I am much more discerning. And if the right person comes along, wonderful. But I'll recognize them now. And all the other ones I recognize very quickly, and move right along. And I would rather do that than settle for any of those.
Laurie James
Yeah, good for you. Kudos to you. So as we come to a close, what's one confession you'd like to make to our listeners on this topic that you haven't shared yet.
Kate Anthony
One of the things I was thinking about the other night, I was really angry at my ex husband, and he was driving me absolutely crazy as he continues to do because he's still him. And there was just something happening. And I was just like, I had this moment of what would my life have looked like, if I had known. And if I had broken up with him at the first red flag, which was very early on that way, and my confession is, I kind of wouldn't have it any other way. Who knows? First of all, you can't do that. Right? That movie Gwyneth Paltrow movie Sliding Doors, right? We can't sliding doors, our lives like we have no idea what the other alternate universe is going to be. But I also just, I've got a great kid. I've got an amazing career. I have grown so much. No shit that I never would have known had I not gone through this process. So, I don't regret it.
Laurie James
Yeah, that's beautiful. And you're stronger for it all. It's so fucking hard to go through it or going through it. But I'm with you. It's like if I wouldn't have had these life experiences, I wouldn't be the person I am today. So on that note, how can people find you Kate.
Kate Anthony
Everything is on my website, which is kateanthony.com. And I'm on Instagram at thedivorcesurvivalguide. And my podcast, which Laurie has been a guest on twice now is the Divorce Survival Guide Podcast, which is available on all platforms.
Laurie James
Great. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to be here with me and our listeners. And I look forward to staying connected with you.
Kate Anthony
Thanks for having me.
Laurie James
Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions of a Freebird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a Freebird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at laurieejames.com to learn how we can work together or to sign up for my newsletter. So you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe, rate, and review. And share it with friends so they can find more freedom in their second or third at also. Until next time.