Laurie James
Hey there, it's Laurie. And before we get started on today's podcast, I have a couple of announcements. The first is, I have a morning workshop locally here in Manhattan Beach on April 27 for my local listeners, if you're interested. It's called The Women In Transition workshop. And we're going to work on releasing what we're holding on inside of us so we can make room for what's next for us, especially if we're in some type of transition in our life. It's from 9 to 12 30, there's going to be a sound bath at the end.
Laurie James
So I will leave a link in the show notes for you to inquire more about that. And I'm also going to have a survey I'm looking at putting together a retreat up in Mammoth in August or September and would love your feedback if you're interested in that. And lastly, this podcast is all about relationships. So I have a great Beginner's Guide to somatic healing in the show notes, so don't forget to request that and it's a great resource for you. So enjoy the conversation.
Laurie James
Welcome to Confessions of a Freebird podcast. I'm your host, Laurie James . A mother, divorcee, a recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go, a therapy junkie, relationship coach, somatic healer, and now podcaster. I'm a free spirit and here to lift you up. On this podcast, I'll share soulful confessions, and empowering conversations with influential experts so you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half.
Laurie James
So pop in those earbuds turn up the volume and let's get inspired because my mission is to help you create your most joyful purpose driven life. One confession at a time. Welcome back, Freebirds. I am thrilled to have my guest back today she is a past guest and my guest today is Tina Hartney and she is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She is a relationship expert and works with adults couples and family relationship dynamics. She's also a dear friend. Tina's advanced training includes bio energetics analysis, which combines somatic and relational work, emotional focused therapy, Gestalt, EMDR, and Tina's offices in Hermosa Beach, but she also offers virtual therapy. So thank you for being here, Tina, and taking the time ouof your day to be with me.
Tina Hartney
It's always a pleasure, Laurie, thank you for having me.
Laurie James
Yeah, so after last week's podcast on the ways to develop meaningful relationships, I had this idea of okay, this is great if we work towards developing relationships. But how do we repair our relationships, whether it's a friendship or an intimate relationship with a spouse or partner, or even our child, or girlfriends? So I brought the expert and one of my go to people when I'm struggling in between my therapy appointments, and it's normal for us to have upsets and to have ruptures and relationships with family members, with our kids, with our partners with our friends. So first and foremost, I want to normalize that where I think some people feel like there's something wrong if they have that, and everything has to be smooth sailing. But I think sometimes and tell me if you disagree, Tina, but when we have not had good role models growing up, we become adults, and we're ill equipped to really handle those relationships.
Tina Hartney
No, absolutely. Laurie. It's tricky.
Laurie James
Yes. And I know that's been true for me. I mean, I had love you, Mom and Dad, but not the best role models. And I know that you also have not had the best role models growing up too. So, if we have a falling out or a rupture or an argument, in your opinion, what's one of the first things that we should do?
Tina Hartney
I think for sure, we want to notice what's happening in our body. And you're actually the expert on that. I know you have a great deal of somatic experiencing training behind you. And I think it's very important to notice what is happening in the body. Yeah, if we get really escalated, if our nervous system starts to go haywire, we're not really going to show up as our best self in trying to negotiate that discussion or that conflict. So you might have more to say about what that would be about noticing the sensations and how to regulate.
Laurie James
Right. Noticing the sensations in your body. What am I noticing? And where am I noticing it? I think that's the first thing. And if you are noticing that your heart is racing, or you have this desire to flee, or to leave the situation, I think that's first and foremost, to try and communicate that in a healthy way of I noticed that I am not really in a good place, or that I'm not able to be present right now, this conversation is important to me that can we pick it up when I'm feeling a little bit better in my body.
Tina Hartney
I mean, if it's something really upsetting, you could notice a desire to just bolt get out of there. Or you can notice that you really want to take it on and fight. Or just you might be shutting down, you might go numb, you might just feel a collapse in yourself where you're just completely going inward and you don't have a lot of words available. We do exactly what you said, we want to communicate that to the other person because they can make up a story about that, oh, they don't care. They're not saying anything. It's not necessarily they may just be shut down. Right?
Laurie James
And can you talk a little bit too about when we are in fight flight or freeze about what happens in the brain?
Tina Hartney
Oh, yeah, we can go offline, or our prefrontal cortex can just shut down. And now we're all of our senses maybe spiking, but we're not in our more rational logical self. The important part is that we can communicate that if we notice it, and just noticing it is a huge step. And then you might want to say more about, well, if I do notice that, like I'm in full shutdown, or I want to bulk out here, or I'm ready to fight for my life right now.
Laurie James
I think with each one of them, they're different, right? Like, if you feel this desire to flee, or flight response, you need to honor that in that moment. And you need to complete that response of I don't feel safe, because there's something inside of you, that doesn't feel safe. Typically, that's our amygdala, saying, this isn't safe, even though it may be safe, you just don't feel safe in your nervous system. So yeah, so you need to let yourself remove yourself. And hopefully, whoever you're with, will be understanding. But it's also the way we communicate it.
Laurie James
If we have a fight response. Again, I think it's important to communicate, I am feeling a heightened whatever it is that you're feeling, I'm feeling agitated, angry, and so again, let's pick up this conversation later. And again, from a nervous system from a somatic place, we want to complete that response. So maybe you take a towel, and you take a towel, and you just pull it and grab it and rip it as hard as you can. Maybe you take a pillow on your bed when nobody's around, turn on the music loud, and hit your bed and say whatever it is that you need to say, to get it out of your system.
Laurie James
Sometimes it's a freeze response. I mean, I know this has happened to me where it's I just shut down and I curl up in a ball and I just cry. And so I need to just release that unfrozen, I can't do anything. And I need to complete that cycle.
Tina Hartney
And I think where people get in trouble is they might have physical things happening in their bodies, but they push through it, they try to push it away, and they just end up exacerbating the conflict and the situation. So being able to notice it, being able to tell the person hey, I care about this. I want to resolve it. I just I realize I'm not in the state to do it right now. But I want to circle back.
Tina Hartney
Or even having to do that for the other person like saying, wow, I see how upset you are. Maybe we should take a little bit of time and then come back and try to work this out. So yeah, that would I think be a good step. And if it's not a huge conflict and the nervous system isn't involved yeah, just take a couple breaths and notice the body and get grounded, new, as simple as that, get really present with what's happening. So that you can show up as your best self.
Laurie James
Right. And what I always say is we talk about stabilization, or grounding. And it's just noticed the chair underneath you, notice your feet on the ground, notice the chair supporting you. And then there's visual ways to ground yourself to and just notice what's around, you notice a picture of you and your family that might be comforting, or something familiar in the room. That's also another way too. So we've gone to a place where we've been able to calm herself, and we're in a more centered place. What is the next thing that we might want to do?
Tina Hartney
Great question. So we've paid attention to the body, the physical body. And I think the next thing that might be helpful is to notice if there's a story in our head, right. So that story could be something like, he or she was so selfish, they were disrespectful, they do this all the time, I'm so tired of being treated this way, or something like that. Or it could be I screwed up again, what is wrong with me? I can't get it together. So it could turn inward, or could be a matter here, going back to that other nervous system response.
Tina Hartney
So really reminding ourselves that generally conflict requires two people. Yes. And even if you had one particular case, you know, the other person may be stirring it up a little bit more. But you know, over the course of a relationship, the dynamics get formed, it generally takes two we all bring stuff into the relationship. So it's important to remind ourselves that usually both sides have a part over all knowing that it takes too and realizing that the absolute enemy of repair is going into blame, shame, and defend. Right.
Laurie James
Okay, say that one more time. I want to make sure everybody gets that because I love that.
Tina Hartney
Yes, blame, shame, and defend. So that looks like it is your fault. You do this all the time. And shame. What is wrong with you? What are you thinking? You're so blah, blah, blah, whatever that how could you have done that? Oh, yes, shame, shame, shame, and defend. I never do that. I always blah, blah, blah. Right.
Laurie James
So or I don't do that, or I don't know what you're talking about.
Tina Hartney
Yes, exactly. So those are the typical things that come up for people when they're in conflict, right? I just want to be very careful with them because while it can feel that way, and maybe even be true, in some instances, it doesn't help. It doesn't help stop it from happening again, it doesn't help repair the relationship. And usually nobody ends up feeling better. Even the person who's doing the blaming and the shaming and the defending them, right, either. Well, we want to remind ourselves that it does take two and what's our body's calm, and we're recognizing what's our story, is our story that they're this or that we're blaming, or even shaming ourselves that oh, I keep screwing up with grumpy. Whatever's happening, kind of getting clear on what that story is, and see if we can softly let that dissipate, take in a breath, and then do a U turn.
Laurie James
Okay, and so what do you mean by U turn? What's a U turn?
Tina Hartney
So I kind of stole that from IFS, even though they use it in different ways. But in this case, it means I'm going to turn and I'm going to really reflect on my part, because it's not like I'm taking full responsibility or blame. But realizing that it does take to I'm going to look at what have I done consciously or unconsciously, to create the situation that I'm in right now? Right? So I want to just ask myself some questions. As I'm walking in, I'm going to ask myself, if I remember to really listen to the other person. Because I think listening is underrated and often the cause of a lot of conflict. Right. Even if I was hearing them, did I really listen?
Tina Hartney
And I don't want to go back here for a minute because if we are are in fight flight or freeze and our frontal cortex isn't working, we can't listen. We don't feel safe in that moment. And that's why, like, we have to be in a really centered place in a better place to be able to come back to a conversation to really repair it. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Tina Hartney
Exactly. It really does take presence. And yes, so did I remember to listen? And then also a great question. Is there something old coming up for me in this new situation? The new situation might be upsetting, but it's going to feel exponentially more upsetting if it's touching on an old hurt or wound, right? And trying to just connect, is there some obvious thing that is getting triggered here? And how can I start to separate that out a little bit?
Laurie James
Or is there a memory? When were the other times I felt this way? Past relationships or past conflict?
Tina Hartney
Yes. Great question. So that's, again, in that U turn, just looking for ways to understand what your own reaction is? And how can I have been more clear or more kind with my own words? So owning that, and then getting down drilling down to yes, they upset me, they hurt me, they made me mad. What exactly? Am I feeling in this moment? If you can get there? And it's not always apparent right away? But trying to Did that hurt my ego? Or does that make me feel not cared about? Or are they saying they're gonna leave me like what's trying to get to the bottom of that, and again, it might take a little time to figure that out. But you're setting the intention to understand your own reaction. So what did we do? We started with the body, and then we went to the story.
Laurie James
And then we went to the U turn.
Tina Hartney
Right. So this next place, if all that goes, well, it's woohoo, we really are set up to resolve this, and the relationship is going to be stronger, and everybody feels really competent in their skills. But what if the person that you're in rupture with what if they just can't meet you there? What if you're checking in with yourself, and you're going through these motions, and they are stuck in the blame, shame, and defend, or they might just be shut down, or you're vulnerable, you're sharing this stuff with them, and they can't even respond. And so really recognizing that we can try to show up in our best self with integrity, but it's not a guarantee that the other person will be ready or even able or willing to show up in that way.
Laurie James
So what do we do in that situation?
Tina Hartney
I mean, at some point, I think if they continue in that if they're in that space, and you're realizing you're bringing these tools, it's not working, I think it's time to consider giving it space. So you might want to say, hey, we need to revisit this another day. If it's base, and then also, there's always time to reevaluate our relationship. Is this a situation that keeps happening where we keep having ruptures and we keep not being able to repair? What does that mean for the relationship? And so it's an opportunity to evaluate. And then we might also notice that we have all these great intentions, but in fact, we can't stop blaming, shaming or defending. And then we have to say, oh, my gosh, I'm trying here, but I can't seem to get out of it. I need more time.
Laurie James
That's all really great, wonderful information. And thank you. So let's say we've done all this and it seems like our partner or the person that we had a conflict with, seems to be on the same page. And it seems like we're in everybody's both centered and grounded and we're ready to repair the relationship and you come back together. What are some of your go to things that you talk about in terms of helping your clients?
Tina Hartney
Well, the favorite is I statements. It goes a lot better to have someone say I felt really rejected or ignored when you set or did XYZ versus you made me feel rejected. You rejected me. You did this. You did that.
Laurie James
What like even just you're doing that right now. And you're going you, you, you, I'm like backing up.
Tina Hartney
Exactly. So we want to like set each other up first success, right? And so the more we can try to come from how we're feeling and what our experience.
Laurie James
Then there is less blame. When I walked into the kitchen, and I saw the expression on your face, I was scared or I immediately got tense.
Tina Hartney
Exactly, a lot different than you looked at me with that face or how it could go.
Laurie James
So we start with I statement. And what I often do for myself and I share with clients is I statements and talk about how I felt.
Tina Hartney
Yes, absolutely. And then when the other person, ideally, when they are using their I statements, and hopefully, when you're using your own I statements, it's important for the other person to listen and mirror, or at least validate. And it doesn't mean that they're saying, yes, you're right. I agree. I agree. But to let the person know that you're hearing what they're saying, wow. So you're saying when you walked into the kitchen, that you felt scared when you saw my expression. Gosh, I get that. That what you were saying.
Tina Hartney
And a lot of clients will say, well, that feels awkward, or unnatural. And that may be but in some way, whatever feels organic to you, it is important to let the other person know that they're being heard. Because if somebody says that I walked in the kitchen, and I felt scared, and then other person launches into I felt while la la la la la , you're just sort of left sitting there.
Laurie James
Hanging on the ledge, you and your feelings.
Tina Hartney
Did they hear me? Do they know that I felt scared?
Laurie James
Do they care about my feelings?
Tina Hartney
Yes. Do they care that I felt scared when I walked in the kid? However you find that you can do it, it is important to acknowledge and notice that we also want to be acknowledged. So important.
Laurie James
Yeah. And that is a hard one that mirroring because it doesn't feel natural.
Tina Hartney
So I've come to even think the word makes people cringe. And so it's, we can say, reflecting or validating or affirming.
Laurie James
Yeah. Validating. I'm sorry, that when I walked in the room that I scared you.
Tina Hartney
Right, or even just acknowledging, wow, I want to acknowledge that was scary for you. That certainly wasn't my intention, or whatever you need to say. But it's that acknowledgement is important.
Laurie James
Right. And I think one of the other things too, is, especially if you've left the situation, and you've come back, let's say something happened, whatever, a night ago, and you guys don't really have time to address it, and then you readdress it the next day, is to really listen to each other story, and give time and space to really listen. How was that experience for you? And then listen, and then let the other person? What was that experience like for them and listen.
Tina Hartney
And this whole idea, so people have a really hard time apologizing, and some people don't. It's such an interesting thing, because some people throw out apologies. So easily, but then the behavior never changes. And the apology loses its its value. And then other people just it's so hard for them apologizing to them means they are wrong, or they are bad.
Laurie James
But in that situation, does that go back to shame? Do they if they apologize, and that's there's a little bit of shame that they must still feel about something because if I apologize, then?
Tina Hartney
That could definitely be the case. And what I have noticed, and it's not maybe always true, but there's usually like a family of orange origin connection. Like if you grew up in a household where there were just no apologies happening, or if kids sometimes are forced to apologize, where you don't feel they did anything wrong, but the parents are saying, you need to apologize right now, mister.
Laurie James
Yeah. And I think the other thing on apology that I just want to bring up is, if apology is hard for you, people can tell when it's sincere and when it's not. And if you really can't give a sincere apology about something, at least acknowledge that and just I know you're looking for an apology, but I can't I'm not in a place where I can give that right now. I'm going to work on that and see if I can come back around to that. Because I have had situations where the apology finally comes and it's just fallen on deaf ears because you've worked so hard and you've asked for it for like so long, right? And then it's too little too late. Or it's I'm sorry, which doesn't feel we hear a lot.
Tina Hartney
Right? Apologies can be very tricky. But one thing that typically will work is and this, I can say this, and it might make sense to some people and not to others. But there's an apology that can come from the head. And there's an apology that can come from the heart. And so a hard apology might be, I'm really sorry, you felt scared, I always want you to feel safe. That's important to me. I didn't mean to scare you. That wasn't my intention. I will work on that in the future. But I'm not really saying that I did something so wrong are so terrible, because I really, I wasn't aware that what I did was going to scare you.
Tina Hartney
Like that's one scenario. Or it could be I intentionally tried to scare you. And that's a whole different conversation. And that would be like, I guess, that I did, I was so mad at you, I wanted you to feel scared. And I, in my calm state, I realized that I care about you. And I don't want you to feel scared. And I need to work on that. And I am sorry. So it can go so many different ways. But yeah, apologizing just in and of itself can be complicated.
Laurie James
Yes, definitely. And I think also, when you're at the end of the repair, and you've worked through these things, and you've heard each other and you've used your eyes statements, I think part of the goal and tell me if you disagree of is to hopefully to change the behavior in the future. So that way you have this conflict doesn't keep showing up in your the same conflict, or the same issues show up in your relationship. So, maybe share one thing that each of you might be able to do differently, either through the repair process, or even the beginning of why the argument or disagreement even happened.
Tina Hartney
Yeah, that can be helpful for sure. Again, assuming people can get there, and both parties are able to process it in that way, and not let go of the idea of it not being their fault, or whose fault it is. And all of that now, it would be ideal.
Laurie James
Yeah. Any other tips on the repair process in our relationships?
Tina Hartney
I guess just that, in therapy, we think about relationships as being in some ways a cycle of rupture and repair. I think you touched on it early that it's normal we're human beings, and rupture does happens. So as much as you can perfect the art of repairing that will pay dividends in all relationships.
Laurie James
Right. Yeah. And I think it's also an opportunity to understand somebody more deeply, and to build a stronger connection with somebody as well. Can we work through this? Can we repair them? That's, I think, the gold in any relationship, really.
Tina Hartney
It totally is. And the bonus is, I'm going to actually start to know myself better. When I do that you turn, right. First when I connect my body, and I start to know how I'm reacting. And I've learned how to settle myself down. And then I'm doing I'm listening to my story. And why is that the story and then I'm learning how to do the U turn and really self reflect on my part. It's a win for everyone. It's done in that kind way. And to the best of our ability.
Laurie James
In closing, is there anything any confessions you'd like to make around relationship repair that we haven't discussed that you'd like to share with our listeners?
Tina Hartney
Oh, gosh, I'm never prepared for that question. I should know you'll ask that. One, I just told this story the other day, I'll make it very short. One, really important lesson I learned was riding in the car with my son when he was a teenager, and he was mad at me. And he told me that I never listened. I always thought I knew better what he wanted than he knew. And I was defending myself. I was saying you were a child. Of course, I knew better. I'm an adult. And my job is to keep you safe. And whatever. It just ended.
Tina Hartney
And we had our weekend, we went back home and we're sitting on the couch the next day, and I said to him everything you said yesterday, you were right. I absolutely did that. I did think I knew better. I didn't always listen as well as I could have. And what I saw was his whole body. Relax, and I saw him exhale. And we hugged and then we watched some dumb show and just felt good.
Laurie James
Yeah, thank you for sharing that story. That's huge and vulnerable as well to share that stories. And I think it'll be helpful to many. So thank you again for being here. And if you want to listen to Tina and my conversation, I will link it's one of the first episodes that I did early on, but I'll put that in the show notes as well. So thank you again for your time today. It's always wonderful to chat with you about all things relationships.
Tina Hartney
Oh, thank you, Laurie. I love your podcast. You're killing it.
Laurie James
Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions of a Freebird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a Freebird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at laurieejames.com to learn how we can work together or to sign up for my newsletter. So you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe rate and review and share it with friends so they can find more freedom in their second or third act also. Until next time.