Laurie James
Hey there, it's Laurie, and before we get started on today's episode. I have two announcements I wanted to make one for all my local listeners, offering a morning workshop on April 27th, which is a Saturday from 9 30 to 12 30. Here in Manhattan Beach, it's going to be a wonderful opportunity for you to take a little time for yourself. Do a little self reflection, think about what you are storing or holding on to, will do some release work, some somatic release work, and there's going to be a sound bath at the end. So you can really let go of what is no longer serving you and make room for what's waiting for you to come in.
Laurie James
I will have that information in the show notes about this and also I've had a couple individuals reach out to me expressing interest in a retreat, a multi day retreat, and I'm going to have a short survey and information, you can click on the show notes on dates. Give your input if this is of interest to you and I will also grab your email and make sure you guys get first priority spots will be limited in this based off of accommodations. So, check that out in the show notes and enjoy this episode.
Laurie James
Welcome to Confessions Of A Freebird podcast. I'm your host Laurie James, a mother divorce, a recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched A Memoir of Holding on and Letting Go, a therapy junkie, relationship coach, somatic healer, and now podcaster. I'm a free spirit and here to lift you up. On this podcast I'll share soulful confessions and empowering conversations with influential experts so you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half. So pop in those earbuds turn up the volume and let's get inspired because my mission is to help you create your most joyful purpose driven life. One confession at a time.
Laurie James
Welcome back Freebirds I am super excited to have my guest on today. And this episode is a great complement to my episode that dropped at the end of February 29th, and that's titled Is It Time to Leave? How do I know when divorce is right for you? So if you haven't listened to that, and you're thinking about divorce or going through a divorce, make sure you take a listen to that as well, and today my guest is Patricia Sciarrino. She is a seasoned divorce and Family Law Attorney in Florida with over 25 years of experience. She presents and guides clients through various stages of divorce and family law disputes.
Laurie James
After growing tired of the conflict and recognizing a need for change in divorce culture. Yay, Patricia shifted her career and now focuses on legal consulting and divorce coaching. As both a Divorce Lawyer and Certified Coach, Patricia's mission is to empower sensible divorcing professionals with the knowledge support and strategies on how best to navigate and streamline the process, reduce unnecessary conflict and drama. Yay, in avoid excess attorney fees and cause, Patricia is available for legal consulting to clients in the state of Florida and for divorce coaching clients worldwide. So welcome, Patricia and thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to be here. It's so great to connect with you again.
Patricia Sciarrino
Thank you so much Laurie, I'm so excited to be here as well. I was looking forward to our talk today and I want to thank you for having me on today.
Laurie James
Yes. So, before I get started, I have to confess as you've probably heard my cheering leading up to this. I love that you and I also see other attorneys I've had on the show, one of them specifically back in August moving in this direction of wanting to reduce the conflict and drama within divorce and avoiding excess attorney fees because I experienced that when I was going through my divorce. And I was taken back by it really and I did choose to minimize the drama and the pain associated with my divorce and not drag it out. Can you tell our listeners why you made this shift?
Patricia Sciarrino
That's a great question. I will tell you that after about 25 years of practicing, and my solo practitioner, and I just got tired of the conflict. So tired. It was constant, the drama of fighting the negativity, the arguing with the other side arguing with the other lawyer. And I just thought, my gosh, there has to be a better way. And I got trained in collaborative law that really didn't take off in my area too much. I started a collaborative training group here. I really tried to focus on let's try to do this a better way. Yeah. It's not easy.
Laurie James
It's not easy and can you tell us or the listeners a little bit more about what Collaborative Law means?
Patricia Sciarrino
Well, the Collaborative Law process, you're really both agreeing, both spouses in the divorce are going to stay at a court, they sign a written in our state to stay at a court. And to try to reach a resolution that is really in the best interest of everyone. And you kind of have teams, you have a lawyer, your other side has a lawyer, there's people that are working with you as neutral facilitators, it's a little bit different I believe in each state. The only drawback to it is it's kind of expensive, pretty expensive in our state. I know it's pretty expensive in California as well. But I love the premise of everyone trying to work together to reach these resolutions and stay at a court.
Laurie James
Right, and it's expensive because there's more people involved.
Patricia Sciarrino
Exactly.Yeah right. Plus a tater sometimes there's a financial neutral, sometimes there can be a parenting coordinator, there's quite a bit and a lot of times people just don't have those kinds of dollars to spend. So even if you can't do the official collaborative divorce way, like to use the theory of working with each other and trying to minimize and or actually just agreeing to stay at a court.
Laurie James
And that could be a really good place to start with your soon to be yes.
Patricia Sciarrino
Absolutely. Sometimes though, we're not on the same page.
Laurie James
Yes, a lot of times, and that's where I feel like the spiral happens.
Patricia Sciarrino
Yes, and I've seen it. But yet, even if your spouse is not on the same page with you, you can still control your side, you can control your reactions, you can control how you're going to let his movements or whatever is happening on his side of the litigation, you could let control how that affects you. And you can choose not to respond that didn't engage, thereby keeping your costs down. There are ways to do that.
Laurie James
I think that's also not using your lawyer as your therapist or your coach?
Patricia Sciarrino
It's so important, so important. That's where the divorce coaches come into play that they're really helpful, because divorce is not just a legal journey. It's an emotional journey, and there's so much right there, your emotions, the breakup, the worry, the fear, and you have all these questions. And really, the lawyer should handle the legal aspects. Really, and you want your lawyer to really protect you, when it comes time to signing that agreement. Most cases are resolved with an agreement, right, a marital settlement agreement, we call them in our say, the detail contract, right?
Laurie James
You we call it a divorce decree or?
Patricia Sciarrino
Such an important document and to me, that's where you really want that lawyers expertise. Do we need this clause, should we have this and how is this going to affect me down the road? So important, but all the legal ends and all the emotional shatter and all that support that you need, try to find that not through your lawyer's office. Even the support staff like the paralegals and all, you have to check with your lawyer, you could be charged our lead time for talking with the support staff. And a lot of times you can do that for a lot cheaper with a divorce coach, or maybe.
Laurie James
Yeah. So as you're making this, you're pivoting your career which is a beautiful reinvention for yourself at this stage in your life. So how do you see your services fitting in to the divorce process as a divorce coach?
Patricia Sciarrino
That's a great question. I like to think of myself as I feel like even as a consultant, I should be the first stop before you even or when you're considering getting a divorce. And why do I say the first stop, especially if you're in my state, Florida. I can educate you about the law, which is important and then of course, we can tailor the conversation about your unique situation and your rights. But more importantly, I can share my tips and strategies.
Patricia Sciarrino
On Number one, how do you get through the process and focus on streamlining it. How do you handle unexpected delays that might come up? How do you go about out, hiring a lawyer that you want to represent you in the finality or in the complete range of the case? I can help with all of that, and I think that's so important. I don't know if most lawyers will discuss that with you during the consultation. I know that when I meet with people, even when I was accepting cases, for full board representation. I see a good part of my consultation at the last few minutes, I would say, okay, let's talk about ways that we can save you money.
Laurie James
Well, wait, can you say that again, because my lawyers never ask question.
Patricia Sciarrino
It's just in my, it's just in my makeup it's in, I would just say, okay. I would save a few minutes to the end, let's talk about ways that you can save money while, I'm representing you. What are some things you can do?
Laurie James
And that I feel like is rare, because at least the lawyers that I came across, and a lot of my friends who have been through divorce have dealt with. And I know not everybody's like this, and I'm not gonna put all lawyers in this category. But there are a lot of lawyers out there that they're like, okay, I'm gonna drag this on as long as I can to get my retainer. Or there's more money here, I see that there's more money here. So I'm going to drag this out. So, when I went through my divorce, we had a mediator and then we had independent counsel to oversee our portion of the split, to make sure that it was fair.
Laurie James
And my side of the lawyer was going, we could hire a forensic accountant for this, unlike everything is here. I don't feel that there is anything that's been hidden. And then to, there was another situation where I did leave some money on the table. Not, and I don't suggest people do this unless you're in a comfortable financial place. But I knew money was important to my ex, and I think that's another point that and I've said this before in my one of my past podcasts.
Laurie James
But know what's important to the other person and use that as a negotiation tool. I knew that I needed to leave some amount of money on the table. So that way, my ex felt like he won, he got the better half, right? Because money was a very controlling factor in my marriage. So, I use that as a negotiation tool for me. So it worked out best for me, and I'm kind of getting on a tangent here. But one, I think it's important to know what is really important to your ex and use that as a negotiation tool.
Patricia Sciarrino
I think that's a great tip, I think it's really wise to make a list of your own values as well, right? Like, what's important to you, maybe for some people that's keeping the house and living remaining in the marital home. Maybe for some people to know, I really want to have extra or a little bit more time with the kids. Whatever your values are, you should know what they are, itemize them, communicate them with your lawyer and to me all decisions going forward should be value based decisions. And what I mean by that is kind of use your decision as a measuring stick, or your values rather as a measuring stick and say, okay. How does this decision that I'm about to make relate to my values and is this in support of my values or not?
Laurie James
Yeah, or am I making this decision just to get back at my ex?
Patricia Sciarrino
I saw that. So I would call that tit for tat. Oh, yeah. Well, to tit for tat tit for tat, is what costs money. I'll give you an example of tit for tat. I call this and again, it's my own phrase but a lot of times.
Laurie James
Oh, I used that like that. Yes, that showed up with my divorce, too.
Patricia Sciarrino
Your spouse's attorney might send you a huge request list of documents, okay? And you're getting annoyed, and you're like, oh my gosh, I've got to turn over all these financial documents. I thought I already turned this over? And then you kind of getting annoyed and you say to your lawyer, you know what, if I gotta turn all these documents over, I want you to file a request. I want him to have to produce the same document, send them a list. Now that's called to protect, right? You really need the documents.
Patricia Sciarrino
Really, again, assess whether you need the documents, in terms of what your values are. If that's really not what's important to you, if it's not going to help you get the resolution that you're seeking. What's the purpose of doing it other than just to retaliate, to drive your cost up to make him feel it? I just don't think it's necessary. And again, that's one of the ways that costs can get run up because litigation is game. We're taught that in law school, litigation is just there moves pawns, they make a move, you make a move back. Only in family law, we're not dealing with companies and corporations. These are families, these are people that are going to have to be dealing with each other. If they have children, for many, many years to come after the divorce.
Laurie James
Yeah, and the more anger and resentment you build up, the longer it takes to get over that or heal from that.
Patricia Sciarrino
Definitely, and I saw such destruction. And I can remember, I would a lot of times I would say in mediation. I was always trying to get I'd like to talk and I would say if they resolve the case, I go guys why don't you guys just go out to lunch together? And sometimes they have a lawyer. Hello Patricia, you're too much and I'm like, but why not? Like they reached a resolution, they did a lot of good work, getting each make compromises, they're leaving on a good note, go and celebrate that, and try to preserve and hold on to. What kind of even brought you together in the first place? I remember there were times when people couldn't even talk and I used to say how sad.
Patricia Sciarrino
They went through life, a lifetime of growing up together and now they can't even speak to each other. They have to speak through us and I thought that was so sad. I would try to rewind them, come on there has to be some good there. Come on, let's try to get it.
Patricia Sciarrino
But in that moment, they're, they're not in a good place or not centered, so they can't see it. They just see fear, they see they're scared and so they're like, can't do it in that moment.
Laurie James
So, you advocate for clients to take an active role in their divorce? Why is that important and what are the different ways a client can do this. And I know, we certainly may have touched on some of that but so.
Patricia Sciarrino
To me, when you're taking an active role, in your case as a client, you are not waiting for someone to save you. A lot of times people will hire a lawyer and think, oh, especially if you pay big retainer. They're just going to take care of me, and I've got my lawyer, and that's what I pay my lawyer for. So I don't have to worry about anything and I'm just going to go bawl. And then when he asked me to do some more, she asked me to do this I'll do it, or whatever. I think you need to take more of an active role.
Patricia Sciarrino
And what I mean by that is, number one, be prepared. Do your research, gather the documents, you don't just want to mention the word I mean, there's a lot of preparation that goes into before you discuss it with your husband, depending on or your wife rather and depending on your your spouse and what you think their reaction is going to be, we kind of have an idea. So, be prepared in terms of, do you have the paperwork that you need, your lawyer is going to send you a request or so many forms to fill out even just for your lawyer. I can't tell you how many times clients did not fill them out properly. They were incomplete.
Patricia Sciarrino
We'd have to go back and say, hey, you forgot question three, four, and five, you didn't answer this completely. How organized you are, the more concise, the more timely your responses are to your lawyer, the better your information is going to get to the lawyer and less cost you're going to have as well. And you're going to feel empowered, you're going to feel like I'm taking a position I'm involved. Another thing, don't wait for your lawyer to contact you. If you want to make sure you get that meeting before mediation which I hear this all the time. I always hear I was waiting for my lawyer to get in touch with me I wanted to meet before mediation. You call your lawyer, you say hey like, schedule a meeting a week or two before mediation I want to get on your calendar. Let's set aside an hour or two.Let's prepare for mediation.
Laurie James
Yeah, be proactive.
Patricia Sciarrino
It's yet your lawyer works for you. People get involved, and another big one, your spouse or other is going to turn over lots of documents. You go through those financial documents as well. Don't rely on your lawyer only another set of eyes is very helpful. The financial circumstances of your marriage, you can look through bank statements, you could look at expenses on credit cards, receipts, and you can see. It didn't sound right or hey we were on a trip somewhere. Whatever, take a look at them, do it. I know, you know, a lot of people might say Akash again, that's what I hired a lawyer for. But the more active you are involved, the more satisfaction you're going to have in your case, the less fees and costs you're going to pay as well.
Laurie James
Yeah. And as you're saying this, what's coming up for me is most people who are going through divorce, they're going through it for the first time ever. And as we've already said, our emotions are running high. They're all over the place because we're dealing with grief, sadness, anger, frustration, all of it. And you're doing something for the very first time which is the second most stressful experience we can go through in life. So, what advice do you have for somebody who might be at the beginning of their divorce and just they know they're getting divorced, or they're at the beginning and they feel overwhelmed by all of this? Because research shows that when we are in a fight flight or freeze state, our frontal cortex is not working properly. We can't really make decisions. What advice do you have? And I know that you're not a psychologist, and that's not your profession, but you've dealt with this for 25 years. What have you seen work?
Patricia Sciarrino
It's a great question. I think it's so important for people to be grounded. To really be centered, because the emotions are going to fly, they're going to be all over. Try to figure out what practices work best for you for grounding. What do I mean by that? Some people love yoga, body work. Some people love being out in nature and it's important to do these everyday. Some people turn to a spiritual practice. Some people rely on their faith. I think this also important, some people need nights out with their girlfriends. Whatever works for you to keep you centered and grounded. I think it's important to journal. I think it's really important to get to confront those feelings. Instead of stuffing them down, right out.
Laurie James
Yeah, and I always say feel to heal. Like, when you're sad, instead of just trying to walk it out. You know, yes go for a walk if you need to go for a walk, but come back. And can you just sit with your emotions, as a somatic relationship coach, we have to sit with our emotions, we have to feel them, we have to process them. So that way, they can complete so they don't stay stuck in our body or we don't shut them down. And all of those suggestions are great suggestions and everybody's different, or work with a coach work with a therapist who has a body practice.
Laurie James
Who really understands because you oftentimes we will disassociate, right? It's a natural thing that we all do. But when we stay disassociated, and we're not in our bodies on a regular basis that's when we have issues and so it's really learning how to ground. And yoga was my first introduction to any type of embodiment and 15 years later, still one of my favorite ways to really get embodied and to really regulate my nervous system.
Patricia Sciarrino
You know, it's so funny you say that, when you start a new job, I had a client several years ago, and she was she had such a calmness and centeredness about her. How? I go boy, I gotta try this yoga thing and I never thought I could do yoga. I was like, I'm not one of those people that can do yoga. She was like, you know, you really should try it and I did. Started with Yin. I loved the release of emotions. I love how I was working to excavate things. I love how it forced me to look at myself. Again, I was one of those people, I never thought I would do it. I'm so glad I did. Now when I speak to people I'm like, hey, do you do yoga? You might want to try it?
Laurie James
Yeah, it really saved me when I was going through my difficult time in my life that I wrote about in my book. It was my lifesaver and I had other issues later on. I got really sick, and I won't go into it but we have to keep coming back to the body. And we have to keep coming to grounding and centering ourselves or regulating our nervous system. There's all kinds of different terms out there but I think that is huge, because that's also, I think a really important. That's when we make the best decisions. We don't make good decisions when we're stressed out and we're frustrated and angry. Our brain cannot chemically do that. It's just not how we're wired. We're in survival mode at that point and we're like, how do I get safe, what do I need to do to get safe? That's where our brain is, at that point.
Patricia Sciarrino
It was so great. I had one client that to mediation, she brought knitting, she bought her little knitting and her yarn, and she bought her crystals. With therapy, we set up a little camp in the mediation room and I remember she was able to stay grounded, and she was able to make decisions, she was able to block out some of the emotions right and not let them in them for too long during the session. Because that's another important thing you gotta do is block out those emotions. You want to make decisions as if you're dealing with a business. At a certain point, you want to be making decisions that are based on your emotions and be triggered. So really helpful to her and I thought my highlights are more my clients need to do this. But she was special. She was special.
Laurie James
Yeah. I love that. It's such great information and you might be listening to the saying, well that's weird. But it's like everybody's different. Honor who you are and honor what you need. So that way you can make this easier on you because I don't wish divorce on anybody. But 50% of people that are married go through a divorce at least once and it doesn't have to be, it's not a life sentence. It doesn't have to be this a failure. For me, It's been a really beautiful even though it took me a long time to give. It's been a really beautiful thing for me because I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you and doing what I'm doing if I had stayed in my marriage,
Patricia Sciarrino
So you were one of the ones that use divorce as a springboard or trends.
Laurie James
Yeah, I knew I wanted to do something. I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, but I knew and I've said this before. If I stayed in my marriage, I literally felt like my soul was going to die. With you're going to wither away and die. That's how on a soul level, I could feel it. And I know that there's a lot of different reasons why people do stay married, and there's no judgment. And I know divorce is not right for everybody. But for me, it I just got to a point where it was so clear. And it was complicated for me too, because I was raising my four daughters. I was caring for my parents.
Laurie James
So there was a lot of other layers that I had to deal with and get into a place where my kids are healthy, they're launched, my mom is healthy, she's not on hospice, all of those things. And then I was like, okay now, I can do it. And again, so for anybody listening, I was really hard on myself for a lot of years of Why can't I do this? And I use this analogy of, I really felt like the who were the two people that you rely on most in your marriage and your spouse and your mother as women. Those are our two lifelines. So I felt like a chair or a table and two of the legs had just been pulled out from under it because my mom was on hospice on and off. And then my marriage was falling apart. And I was like, oh my God, what do I do? How do I put these things together?
Patricia Sciarrino
You said something that's interesting. You mentioned how I felt like a failure. One of the things I think we need to do is I think we need to change the narrative around divorce in this country. You are not a failure. If your marriage ends, why is a marriage that ends in divorce deemed an unsuccessful marriage. I know of many marriages that are lasting much longer, 40 50 years when people are miserable. Get the law rewards longevity in a marriage, I'll tell you that in our state, alimony laws change but the longer you're going to, see that in our state, you're entitled to durational alimony. The longer you're married and interesting, because it just doesn't make sense that we're going to reward longer term marriages of that might not be healthy.
Laurie James
Yeah, and in California, and I again, I'm not an attorney, but I know that the 10 year mark is an important mark for a lot of legal alimony and child support. I think it's more alimony, not child support. But yeah, so I know a lot of people like hanging out for 10 years and they're miserable, and they're miserable. Anyways, so we'll move on from that because that could be a whole another subject. So can you explain for our listeners, the difference between mediation and individual representation?
Patricia Sciarrino
What's important to know about mediation is a lot of times people will ask me, do you need a lawyer to go with you to mediation? Typically don't. But what's important to know about mediation, at least in our state is, the mediator does not represent any one of you either party. the mediator is not looking out for the best interest of either party. That's the difference with the lawyer, your lawyer that you hire is looking out for your own best interests. Least they're supposed to be doing that, that's the premise. And that's a lot different than the mediators role, because the mediator is just neutral. And the mediators goal is to reach a resolution.
Patricia Sciarrino
A lot of times mediators success is based upon whether or not they resolve the case. Not how fair it was, or who ended up with what terms none of that. It's just, oh, that's another one they resolved or. That's what their reputation is built on. Oh, you can take them the tough ones. They're really good, and a lot of times lawyers in the case in our state will choose which mediators to use. So we get people sometimes will think I don't need my lawyer, I'll just go to mediation alone. And the media will just tell us what's fair, no, now is in our state can't give advice. They're not looking out for you. So I don't recommend that people go to mediation without a lawyer. I don't. And I certainly don't think you should sign an agreement without a lawyer.
Laurie James
If somebody is choosing to use a mediator. What do you recommend that they do then?
Patricia Sciarrino
You could hire a lawyer, just to go to mediation with you that's in our state. That's called limited scope representation. Onegold services where you hire a lawyer just for a specific reason, you could do that? Or would whoever your lawyer is, can go with you. If you hire a lawyer and pay the retainer initially then your lawyer will go with you to the mediation to go along ou could. But do I recommend that you sign it without having a lawyer look at it? Absolutely not?
Laurie James
Yeah, that's really great information there, because in my casewe did work with a mediator. I would say my divorce was easier than some harder than others. As though we did work with a mediator, my ex I negotiate a lot outside of the mediator. And we actually used a certified financial planner that specialized in divorce, to talk about our finances and how to split up the pie, so to speak. But then we had separate lawyers look at our own individual half and bring up various issues and if we wanted to deal with it, we could or not. I chose not to as I said earlier, and there was a lot of tweaks and changes and you know, lots of different ways to cut the pie. So it was more about that.
Patricia Sciarrino
I liked it, you guys went to mediation without your attorneys. The mediator helped come up with some sort of agreement. But again, before anyone's signing the agreement everyone had their independent lawyers review them, and then tweaks were made, right? That is a good way to resolve it as well. I like that. I like the sense that your guys are empowered. You're negotiating yourselves. And you're you consulting with a financial professional as well to answer those questions, because a lot of those questions come up. But then again, you're having your independent counsel, review them and look out for your own best interest so important.
Laurie James
What are other ways to go about this?
Patricia Sciarrino
Well, another way you can resolve the breakup is the parties can negotiate on their own. Then one party can present the terms to their own lawyer, and then that lawyer can prepare the agreement. And then the agreement is sent to the spouse and the spouses own independent lawyer. Cornice can negotiate without a mediator in that case, and then the lawyer prepares it and then the other lawyer reviews and tweaks are made. And you can do that without even filing, before filing. It's called Pre-suit Negotiation state, because once you file the divorce, you're in a lawsuit. I don't know people really realize it but you're suing.
Laurie James
Yeah, and that affects your credit and that affects other things.
Patricia Sciarrino
It's you're in a legal proceeding, there are time constraints that have to be complied with, there are rules in our state that have to be complied with. Very different, very different than if you were negotiating this before anything being filed, and just trying to reach an agreement on your own. Those are the two biggest different ways that to handle it. Pre-suit, then going to file you go into mediation, you can go to mediation before you spile, you could go to mediation, even after you filed the lawsuit. So those are kind of the different strategies, the parties can negotiate them themselves, the lawyers can prepare the agreement. But again, it boils down to the more active role you take in it. I think the more overall satisfaction you'll have with the resolution, and the length last you're going to pay.
Laurie James
Thank you, that's great, great information. So we may have touched on some of these already. But just to clarify a little bit more, what are two or three of the biggest mistakes you see people making when they've gone through divorce or people that you've represented?
Patricia Sciarrino
Well, I'll say the mistakes I see that people make not necessarily the ones that I'm representing. Let me just say that, because I like to think that had a pretty good satisfaction rate overall, with my clients. But in any event, when we're just talking about in general. I think the one of the biggest things I mentioned to you was taking an active role and being an active participant in the case, it's really, really important. I can't tell you how many times I would hear about situations where the client just didn't want to respond to the information didn't buy the details, just didn't want to bother.
Patricia Sciarrino
And that affects what type of resolution you can achieve, you got to be more prepared. So really helpful to do that. Another big mistake I saw was people let their emotions control, when they were making decisions. So we really got to keep the emotions out of it. Don't go tit for tat, a really assess the decisions you're making. Are they in line with your own personal values? Are they in furtherance of your values? Do they support your values, really important? And another one, I think that's really important is having a really good communication system with your lawyer.
Patricia Sciarrino
Stand their billing practices, understand how they're going to keep you advised of any developments in your case. Ask these questions and don't sit back and wait. You contact them. You ask questions, get on their calendar. I hear so many people say, I'm calling in there and they're not answering. Ask a schedule of phone conference, walk into the office, say I want to set up a meeting. I want to get on his calendar or heard calendar next week. Once the next time I could see him. You got to be the one that really takes the bull by the horns and tries to get them done. Don't just sit around it.
Laurie James
Yeah, and just circling back to I think number two, you talked about taking the emotions out. I feel like I've done these things. So I'm patting myself on the back but one of the things I remember before I went into my very first mediation meeting with my ex.The night before I had a couple of girlfriends over and they were like, super supportive and like, who talked about it a little bit, but it was more of just like a gathering and like my support system. But I remember consciously saying, okay, this is now a business contract. This is a business agreement and as much as I can, I want to remove my emotions and it's not easy.
Laurie James
It's not easy and I remember going into that first mediation. And I mentioned this when I was being interviewed on somebody else's podcast, but I sat there and of course, my ex was very good. He knew how to poke the bear. So he was poking the bear at me and I was sitting there, and I felt myself getting teary eyed and upset and emotional. I said, excuse me, I need to take a break, and I got up, and I went to the bathroom. And I gave myself the time to collect myself and to regulate my nervous system, get grounded, again, get centered.
Laurie James
So that way, I could come back to that conversation and then the other thing that I did after that was all my other mediation that we did, I decided I am not going to be face to face in mediation with him. I will do a zoom, I will do a phone conversation, but I'm not going to be in the same room as him. So that's how I took my power back to take care of my well being through that process.
Patricia Sciarrino
You set a boundary?
Laurie James
Yes, and then I think that's really important. Like, we need to do that to protect ourselves.
Patricia Sciarrino
Absolutely. I love what you did. You had enough self realization and self awareness to know, wait a minute, I'm going down a road here this isn't good. I need to take a break. A lot of people don't have that self awareness. Kudos to you, Miss Laurie. And what if someone doesn't have that amount of self awareness? Maybe or that control where they can remove themselves? Maybe they can say to their lawyer? You know what, please help me keep my emotions out of this. Please help me when you see me getting emotional, pull the plug, let's take a break. What people really don't realize too is that they think that they have to stay in mediation all day. Like you've got to stay there for hours and hours, you know, you don't at least not in our state.
Laurie James
You don't have to in California, it's if you don't come to a resolution on the issues that you're discussing. You can pick it up again, my ex and I had multiple conversations with the mediator on our own probably 5, 6, 7, 10 conversations between the two. Not so important, finally come to a resolution.
Patricia Sciarrino
Yes, and most people don't realize they they think will be there and I just have to stick it out. And no, you don't. And if it's too much, if it's too much emotionally, it's just too much physically, you're exhausted. Hey, we need to end we need to stop. Let's stop, take a recess, we got a journey back. But that's really important. But people just don't realize that.
Laurie James
Yeah, and I think the other important piece, too, is on this topic is if you don't feel like you can make a decision or you're feeling overwhelmed or it's okay to say, I need time to think about this. If the other side presents something that kind of was unexpected. It's okay for you to say, I need time to think about that. I'm not prepared to make a decision on that today. I'll get back to you on it.
Patricia Sciarrino
It's so empowering. That is so smart. And a lot of times you might hear the other side say, oh, no, the deal is only good today. Those the negotiation tactics that the opposing party might use. Nope, take it and leave it. Then you know what you're clued to leave it alone. You cannot at least in our state, you cannot get out. It's very difficult to try to get out of a mediation agreement once you signed it, or even a contract that you signed. So, you certainly don't want to succumb to any coercion or duress or anything like that. You don't feel right about it. Nope. Anytime. Good for you.
Laurie James
Yeah, it wasn't easy. It was hard. Divorces is not the most enjoyable chapter of my life. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, right?
Patricia Sciarrino
What a catalyst right for you for your Bolson to change. Yeah, I could see it. It's that's awesome.
Laurie James
So as we're coming to a close here, Patricia. What is one confession that you'd like to make? That maybe we haven't touched on yet, that you'd like to share with our listeners?
Patricia Sciarrino
It's a good question. I know this is one of your questions that you asked at the end your podcast, so interesting. I love it. Over the past few years, I've done a lot of self reflection, a lot of inward work. And I've really decided that it's time for me to give myself some grace. I think we do this as we get older, we look back over the tapestry of our lives, we start looking at some of this decisions we make, and maybe we want a second guests. And maybe we want to say, oh, why and question and I've realized I'm not doing that.
Patricia Sciarrino
I'm giving myself grace, and I think we all should give ourselves grace. So easy to play back decisions and say, why don't I do that? Let's leave it. It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback? There's different values we have at the time we make the decisions, right? Look, I'm stances in our lives, things change and to go back later on and beat yourself up about a decision that you made that now you'd make differently, because you have a different lens to look through after experience at all. That's not fair. Now, I'm realizing. No more. Giving myself no more beaten up, and just hey, do the best I could. I've learned everything's a learning experience.
Laurie James
We all do the best we can in any given moment and we know now, different things that we knew then.
Patricia Sciarrino
Definitely, and I see it sometimes with divorce clients as well. I would see that maybe what was important to them at the time, maybe peace and not fighting, and then later on, they're like, oh why didn't I you might hear someone say why didn't I get that? I left that on the table. I want you to remember at that time, and I would sometimes say this to my clients, like remember, these are what's important to you now at this time. So I want you to remember that, like that was what was important to you then and you did what was best in in your best interest at that time.
Laurie James
And how was that negative self talk helping you in this moment? That beating yourself up of, we can look at things as failures, or we can look at them as opportunities. So it's a beautiful note to end on. And if anybody wants to get in touch with you, how can they find you?
Patricia Sciarrino
I've got my website, patriciasciarrino.com. And I think you put the way to spell my name and a shirt.
Laurie James
Yes, I will put the link in the show notes, so people can connect with you that way.
Patricia Sciarrino
As well on my name at all.
Laurie James
Not too big on social media. But I'm starting to come out. So thanks for helping me become more visible. I appreciate it.
Patricia Sciarrino
My pleasure. Well, thank you so much for this very valuable information that you shared with us today. I know it's going to help many and thank you again for your time. Thank you for your vulnerability and sharing, Laurie. I know you've helped some people as well through this.
Laurie James
You're welcome.
Patricia Sciarrino
Take care.
Laurie James
Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions Of A Freebird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a free bird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at laurieejames.com. To learn how we can work together or to sign up for my newsletter. So you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe, rate and review and share it with friends. So they can find more freedom and their second or third act, also. Until next time.