Financial Empowerment: How to Spot and Escape Financial Abuse in Relationships with Lisa Zeiderman

Do you know what financial abuse is and how to recognize it in a relationship? 

It can creep up on you without you even realizing it and next to physical abuse, it’s one of the worst types of abuse one can experience.

It's about control—keeping one cut off from accounts, passwords, and financial resources so you capitulate into doing what your partner wants you to do.  

This episode is a must-listen because you need to empower yourself to safeguard your financial future!

My guest today is Lisa Zeiderman, a top matrimonial attorney in New York, CFL, and Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, she regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters, as well as prenuptial and postnuptial agreements for high-net-worth individuals.

In this episode you’ll learn:

• What financial abuse is and the signs to look for. 
• Why it’s imperative to bring together a support team to work on your behalf if you are divorcing and experiencing financial abuse.
• How prenuptial and postnuptial agreements can protect you, no matter your financial status.
• Why transparency and open communication about finances are essential in any relationship.
• How to achieve financial empowerment and take back control of your financial future.
• And MORE!

Tune in to learn how to protect your finances and make informed decisions in your relationship!

Stay empowered Freebirds,

Laurie

These guides will help you take the next step in life. 

Click here to signup for my FREE “Intro to Somatic Healing” Class on Wednesday, August 28th at 4 pm.

Click here to learn about my upcoming “Somatic Healing” class, Recover.

Click here for my “Somatic Healing for Beginners Guide”

Click here to purchase my book: Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go

Sign up for my newsletter here to stay current on my upcoming offerings and podcast interviews!

Website

Connect with Lisa:
Email: lz@mzw-law.com

Phone: 914 488 2402
Website: www.lisazeiderman.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/lisazeiderman

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL, MEDICAL OR PROFESSIONAL ADVICE. YOU SHOULD CONTACT A LICENSED THERAPIST IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE. YOU SHOULD CONTACT A LICENSED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WITH RESPECT TO ANY MEDICAL ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

Transcript

Laurie James  
Hey, there freebirds. Before we get started on today's episode, I wanted to remind you to sign up for my free introduction to Somatic Experiencing class on Wednesday, August 28 at 4pm if you've ever been curious about what somatic healing is and how it might help you heal from your past, either childhood divorce or a bad breakup. I will share the science, give you some exercises and have plenty of time for Q and A so that way you walk away feeling like you have a really good understanding of how Somatic Experiencing can help you. So I hope you'll join me and enjoy this episode

Intro  
Today on Confessions of a Freebird. 

Lisa Zeiderman  
Financial abuse comes in a lot of different forms, but it's mainly about control, often coercive control. Often it is so that you can actually take advantage of the person. Put that person basically in a box. Make sure you put enough stress on that person so that they capitulate to what you want. We see it in so many cases. It's really insidious in a lot of ways. And I think I would say that next to physical abuse, it's probably the worst form of abuse.

Laurie James  
Welcome to Confessions of a Freebird podcast. I'm your host. Laurie James, a mother, divorcee, a recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched A Memoir of Holding on and Letting go, a therapy junkie, relationship coach, somatic healer and now podcaster. I'm a free spirit, and here to lift you up. On this podcast, I'll share soulful confessions and empowering conversations with influential experts so you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half. So pop in those earbuds, turn up the volume, and let's get inspired, because my mission is to help you create your most joyful, purpose driven life, one confession at a time. 

Laurie James  
Welcome back, freebirds. I have to confess, I am so honored to have today's guest with me. Today you are going to hear a conversation with me and Lisa Zeiderman. She is a managing partner at Miller Zeiderman in New York, a matrimonial attorney, a CFL, which I don't know what is, what's a CFL. 

Lisa Zeiderman  
Certified Financial Litigator. 

Laurie James  
Okay. A certified divorce financial analyst. She regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters as well as pre and post nuptial agreements for high net worth individuals. Lisa has received several awards, including Crain's New York List of notable women attorneys from 2021 and 2023 Hudson Valley Best Lawyer in 2022, 23 and 24 is a founding member of American Academy of Certified Financial litigators and a member of the panel of attorneys for children. She's also authored a well read blog on Psychology Today about legal matters, understanding mental health issues as they apply to divorce and child custody. Lisa is regularly published in financial advisor magazines, the New York Law Journal and by the Forbes Business Council. So welcome Lisa. And I have one question for you, when do you sleep?

Lisa Zeiderman  
Yeah, so my husband likes to remind me that there are only 24 hours in each day and that some of them actually need to be devoted to sleep. 

Laurie James  
Yes. 

Lisa Zeiderman  
There's always somebody who says yes to everything from that person who can say no. And you know, you always go to the busiest person if you want something done.

Laurie James  
That is very true. So you seem to be very passionate about your work. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you decided to get into maternal and family law?

Lisa Zeiderman  
Sure. So I was in the fashion business. I had started out in the fashion business when I was in my 20s, and worked on Seventh Avenue, and then was kind of an entrepreneur from the get go. I had a showroom on Seventh Avenue. And then I went through my own divorce, and my daughter was around one or two at the time that it started. And I realized, as it was going through my divorce, that although obviously it was stressful, I also found the information interesting and the dialog about it interesting, and I also felt that I could be very helpful to people who were going through a divorce, because one of the things I noticed is that the response time from my then attorney was very slow, and it was a complaint that many people have. And so I realized when your response time is slow, and I mean, like, a week, okay, right? Okay, and when the response time is slow, you kind of think to yourself, What do I do then? And you make decisions that aren't the smartest decisions necessarily. And so it is really important that you have a great team, and that you have enough bandwidth to make sure when you take on a client, that you are able to service that client and respond. I wouldn't say momentarily, because that's a little impossible, but as quickly as possible, as reasonably possible. And so I decided to go back get my bachelor's degree at Fordham, and then my law degree at Fordham, and I had already decided that I was going to focus on family law and matrimonial law.

Laurie James  
Very nice. Well, thank you for being one of those lawyers that responds within reason, because through my own divorce, I had a combination, and it was always nice to count on that person that was responsive. And I think that, although I'm not going to get into our conversation today, I think that's definitely one thing that you want to look for when you're looking for an attorney, if you're going through a divorce, or thinking about going through a divorce, for sure, and you do your research. I mean, I had a podcast that dropped a little while ago. We talked about that, but do your research, and that is so important to find a good lawyer. So a lot of my listeners are either thinking about divorce, getting divorced, or have recently left a relationship. I want to take an opportunity to jump into financial abuse for us to chat about that today. If we can, can you tell the listeners what financial abuse is like? What's the definition and then maybe the different types of financial abuse that you see? 

Lisa Zeiderman  
Sure. So financial abuse comes in a lot of different forms, but it's mainly about control, often coercive control. Often it is so that you can actually take advantage of the person. Put that person basically in a box. Make sure you put enough stress on that person so that they capitulate to what you want. We see it in so many cases. It's really insidious in a lot of ways. And I think I would say that next to physical abuse, it's probably the worst form of abuse from my own point of view. I get that people feel emotional abuse when they are being cursed at or screamed at, but when you don't have the money and the finances to move around in the world, although those finances really are available to you, that is financial abuse. When you're no longer able to track the finances at all. You're cut off from passwords, cut off from accounts, have your credit lines limited in some way that is abusive and that you can't make your reasonable expenses, such as even childcare. So you could work and go out and make a living and go out and make sure that you're pushing forward your own professional development. That is a form of financial abuse, and we see it so many, many times. And once it starts, it's kind of a cycle that doesn't end until somebody gets out. 

Laurie James  
Yeah. And that goes into my next question, which you may have just answered, but what can people do when they become aware of this?

Lisa Zeiderman  
So I think that you need to build your team. You need to build a team of a therapist, an attorney, a financial advisor. You need to be able to communicate with your partner or spouse and be able to say this isn't working. I need to have access I need to have access to the credit card. I need to have access to the accounts. You can't send all the account statements to your office and not show me. You can't actually send them to your email and not show me, right? So maybe family therapy is a place to raise this in a safer spot. I mean, people have to judge whether there's also physical abuse in the marriage because they don't want to do something that is endangering themselves or their lives, but it may come a time when the partnership is no longer working, because part of a partnership, particularly in New York, is that it's a financial partnership, too. Your marriage is a financial partnership, and if one of those partners is not allowing you access, is controlling everything, then you're not really a partner at all. You're just being abused. 

Laurie James  
Yes, very well said. And it does affect a lot of people. It affects some clients that I have worked with in the past and present, and it's the control that they have, and then as women, which a lot of my listeners are, a lot of times there's guilt, or they feel bad and they don't want to push back, or they're afraid of upsetting their spouse or their partner more, because they're afraid of the backlash.

Lisa Zeiderman  
And I think that that's the point, right? So I think when you're financially abused, you're more likely to be emotionally abused and you're more likely to be physically abused because you can't move around the world. You can't get that therapist or that attorney or help. You don't have passwords, you don't have access to the money. You can't use your ATM you can't go to work because you don't have the money to pay the babysitter, and now you can't buy the groceries because she couldn't go to work. And this partner, so called partner, is really controlling the funds, and that, of course, then lends someone to think, well, now I can abuse her or him in a different manner. I can be emotionally abusive. I can curse at that person. I can drink and maybe be physical with that person. All of these things take place, but I think financial abuse is really the catalyst for a lot of that, and I think people have to be very wary of relationships where they don't have access and control to the finances. 

Laurie James  
Yeah, I agree. I remember early on in my realization, I will say it was probably to the middle towards the last third of my marriage, but I had realized that I was not the beneficiary for some of his financial documents, like the 401K and retirement, And I blew a fuse, and he's like, Well, you're making a big deal out of this, or, you know, something along that was the sentiment. I don't know his exact words, but I just flipped out, and I said, you need to change that. And I want to see the physical document that that has changed.

Lisa Zeiderman  
Right. That's the key, and that you see the physical documents every month, right? Because just because it changes once doesn't mean it doesn't change back. And so it's really important that you are copied, that you are given the physical documents, that the accounts are some of the mirror and joint names, that you have your own account, that maybe all of the accounts or in joint names, it depends. But what you should certainly understand is, what is the marital estate consist of? What should you have access to? Now, many times we see people with quite a bit of money, frankly, and they have financial means, and yet the spouse who is not earning is put on an allowance, as if they're a child. Well, they're not children. They may be doing other things in the marriage. Maybe they're taking care of the kids. Maybe there's being supportive of somebody else's career that does not give someone license to put someone on an allowance, and they accept it because it's easier than fighting it, and they don't feel safe to have the discussion because they're afraid frankly, they're going to get divorced, or they're afraid that somebody's going to leave them, or they're afraid of having less than what they have when, even though it's it's literally an allowance. And so I think that women, particularly but men as well, need to understand that they need to have access to the finances. 

Laurie James  
And that they legally can have access. I mean, a lot of the people that are listening here, they're all over the nation, but in California too. I'm based in California. You're in New York. California is a 5050, state, right? And a lot of people don't understand that, that even though they may threaten you with this that legally, you do have rights.

Lisa Zeiderman  
Right. So New York is not a 5050 state. It's an equitable distribution state, which means that we look at what is fair based upon the contributions of each party. So there are some things that are not necessarily going to be 5050 like a business valuation. You're not going to necessarily get 50% of a business but there are other things that you will if the marriage is long enough, and if you have children, and if you contributed by indirect contributions or direct contributions, there is a likelihood that you will get 5050, and so it's important to note that it's also important that you don't want to stay in a situation where people are allowed to make whatever decisions that they want. They can transfer to their family members, other family members, right? They can transfer funds to friends or paramores, or if you're not watching the hen house, it's not good. It's just not good.

Laurie James  
Yeah, you can't put that much trust in somebody else.

Lisa Zeiderman  
It just doesn't make sense, right? 

Laurie James  
Yeah, and I've seen people do that. I mean, when I had that realization, I was like, Okay, this is the universe speaking to me, and I need to be more aware of this, which led into other things. And I think this is a great opportunity to transition into creating financial security. If one of us is staying home or has stayed home and going in, how can we secure that? I know one of the topics that we talked about prior to jumping on here was prenups and post nuptial agreements. First, Can you explain the difference between a prenup and a postnup? Let's start there, and then we can dive in a little bit more. 

Lisa Zeiderman  
Sure. So a prenuptial agreement is an agreement that you sign prior to getting married, and it can consist of clauses, provisions for how you're going to divide your finances in the event of a divorce. It also can address issues such as alimony, spouse support, maintenance, depending upon what you call it, in which state, and it can address life insurance and what happens with your estate in the event that you die. Now that's something that people rarely think about in terms of, what are my rights if my spouse dies? But it is actually an important consideration, and it's an important piece of the prenuptial agreement. So those are, I would say, in some and substance, the overarching themes you can address, what's going to happen to the marital residents who will move out, who will have the option to buy, what happens to inheritance? Separate property that you brought into the marriage, that's a very big issue separate property that you inherit during the marriage, how to make sure that it remains separate and apart. And that's a very big theme, and it can address how you deal with your income during the marriage. So, you know, there are a lot of prenups that we do nowadays. For a lot of the younger generation that wants to keep their income separate. They want to literally, this is my income. This is your income. You save in your account. I'll save in my account. What's mine is mine and yours is yours. Okay? That's great. There may come a time when they need to enter into the post nuptial agreement. So in New York, we actually allow for a post nuptial agreement. Every state does not. So you need to actually know whether your state actually recognizes post nuptial agreements or not, but in New York, we do. So you can change your prenuptial agreement if both of you agree, and you could actually modify it to fit the circumstances at the time, if both of you agree, it's a great discussion to have with your spouse, particularly if things have changed, maybe one of you is now a stay at home parent, and as you said earlier, maybe you want to plan for your future, and this is a great place to negotiate the issue prior to maybe having that first child, maybe prior to having the second child. It's harder to negotiate it after, okay, the children are now born, and you're raising your children, and things are kind of going on, and year after year passes, it's better to do it earlier than later, because once you're in that situation, it's harder. 

Laurie James  
Right. But things change through that process too, right? Like I remember there was a small conversation with my ex, when, before we got married, and he said something about a prenup. And I said, No, if you want a prenup, then I don't want to get married, because we didn't really have anything. I mean, he owned the house that we were moving into. You know, we both had some savings. He had some more, but it wasn't significant. He was early 30s. I was my mid to late 20s, so he didn't have a lot of assets at that time, but that may have come back to bite me.

Lisa Zeiderman  
So the idea is to look ahead, right? You can't account for everything that's going to happen to somebody's life. But you can ask good questions, are you planning to have children? Have you had discussions about that? How do you want to maintain your accounts? Do you both want to have professional careers? Does one of you want to start a business? These are all questions that you can ask. Is one of you coming into a lot of great deal of inheritance monies? And if so, is that going to change the dynamic of who is working and who is not? How are we going to deal with marital funds?

Laurie James  
Or if you make that money community property or not, and have that actually be communicated up front.

Lisa Zeiderman  
Exactly, or at least the other side of that right is to be very straightforward, that it's not going to be community property or marital property, as we say in New York, right? Community property in California, marital property in New York. It's not going to be divided. So if someone is coming into the marriage with many millions, okay, and they feel secure, they feel financially secure, and they want you, for example, to stay home and raise children. Well, you might have a conversation about that, because that person is financially secure. That is their separate property. How are you going to be provided for in the event of a divorce? It's a good reason to have a prenuptial agreement. And even the people who have virtually nothing, they have hopes and dreams and aspirations, and so you need to consider that. And trust me, there's always something that I learn about people, whether it be family money, or some grandmother is going to be giving money, or somebody had a home before the marriage. There's always something to learn.

Laurie James  
Yeah, and then what? About when you're older, if it's a second marriage or even third marriage, that's one question. Another question is, what about if you don't get married and you just live together?

Lisa Zeiderman  
Okay, so I'll start with the second one. So in New York, living together is not going to get you a financial partnership. You will not have any alimony, and you will not have equitable distribution. You need that marriage, actually a legal marriage, to have a financial partnership. That's what marriage is about in New York, in a large way. And people who ignore that, who say, I just don't want to sign a contract. This is too contractual in its nature. This doesn't feel romantic to me, those people are kidding themselves, because not everything about marriage is going to be romantic. There has to be some reality check here that at the end of the day, you both need to protect yourselves and to be fair to one another and transparent. So that's what I would say to the second question, to the first question, what about second marriages and third marriages? Well, look, those people have likely gone through divorces if they're not widowed, right, where there was some sort of a negotiation or litigation, and they're going to be more protective of their assets the second time around, because they've already divided them once, and they probably don't really want to divide them twice. No matter how much money you have, you have less when you're dividing it up, and that just doesn't feel great. Nonetheless, if you want to get married, you need to address these issues with your spouse to be so that you can both be transparent and honest, and your spouse could be can make decisions about what they want to do with their finances, how they want to treat their careers, what they want to do. Maybe you're asking the spouse to be to travel with you all the time because you've got a lot of money. Well, that's great. Oh, what are they supposed to do when they get divorced? How are they going to be supported? Right? Or maybe you say, I want to have more children, and I don't need you to work, honey, it's fine. I'll take care of you. Well, put it in writing. Take care of the person in writing, so that it's a contract. There's nothing wrong with that. It's easy to say it, it's harder to walk the talk, right? 

Laurie James  
Well, and I think, as I'm thinking, my own process, because I did go through a post nuptial agreement, and I wrote about it in my book, so if anybody wants to read about it, it was a very big turning point in my marriage. But going through that process, what I think it also does is it shows you who the person is that's sitting across the table from you, right? Because if I went through my post nuptial agreement as a prenup, I would have definitely not gotten married to this person because it was one of the most miserable and traumatic experiences I think I've ever gone through. So I think that there's that too, is it really teaches you, okay, who am I really marrying? Even though I wasn't a proponent of prenups at the time. Maybe it would have been a better thing for me, and I probably wouldn't have gotten the surprise I did later on. 

Lisa Zeiderman  
Right. It's about the surprise later, right? The prenuptial agreement, or the postnuptial agreement, allows you to plan. It allows you to make the decisions that you need to make. It spells it out. Look, you may not like the deal that you get in your prenup or your post up, but at least you know what you need to do when your spouse says, Oh, don't worry about your career. Don't worry about going to work. It's fine. It isn't fine. It's not fine because you will be left perhaps with nothing. So it won't be fine. And that's why it's so important to have that discussion, that honest discussion, maybe you'll say, You know what? I understand that this is yours, but then I'm going to have to build my career. I'm going to have to stay with my career. Can't travel every month with you. Sorry. That is just not how this goes. Okay? I can't be at your back and call. I have to do something that is important for me. 

Laurie James  
Right? And if you want me to do these things, then this is what I'm going to need. And that kind of goes into my next question, which is, what do you want to say to the person who doesn't feel empowered to stand up for what they really want, or to like, really fight for like, their worth that empowerment piece? What do you want to say to that woman who just is not sure about themselves or is afraid to ask? 

Lisa Zeiderman  
I think that's a very big issue that we see so many times, where someone wants to get married badly enough that they will accept almost anything. And we do say, we explain to them in writing and obviously by phone and in a meeting, that they are making what we consider to be a major mistake, and that there will be no going back, that this person who is not generous now is not going to be more generous later, when they don't like you as much well, they don't want to marry you well, they aren't concerned with your welfare. That's not going to happen. That's just so unrealistic. 

Laurie James  
Yeah, yeah, because divorce doesn't bring out the best of anybody.

Lisa Zeiderman  
No, it usually does not. Look there's that rare moment when you see somebody say, I want to give more, okay, but that is such a rarity that is just hardly ever happens. And so you have to really think about the lifestyle that you're entering into and understand what somebody is offering you and what it means. And look, it's not bad to go to a financial advisor as well as an attorney and have this discussion. Well, whatever it is that's being offered, will this actually allow me to live until I'm age 95 for example, if I got divorced, what will this do? Okay, if I get divorced in five years, 10 years, 15 years, you need to actually consider that, and it is good to have a discussion with a financial advisor about it. 

Laurie James  
Yes, I agree. And is that why you ended up becoming a certified divorce financial analyst, so that way you could also bring that piece into it as well into your- 

Lisa Zeiderman  
Yes, it's helpful, right? It's not something that I do on an everyday basis, okay? But I have the training, and I have the background, and I certainly am able to understand the numbers and the finances, and I also know what I don't understand. And when I need an expert, or someone who is an accountant, or a forensic accountant, etc, it's being able to not only understand but to issue spot, right? So if there's a tax issue, it's important to know, well, there's capital gains here. Somebody thinks that they're going to be getting this, but they're really getting this. What's the net effect here, after the taxes are paid in the capital gains? What's the difference between the Roth IRA and the IRA? Okay, these are all questions that people need to understand, because apples aren't, you know, necessarily apples to apples, and I've seen a lot of deals that are so lopsided because people didn't understand the difference between the finances.

Laurie James  
Right. And even in California, we are a 5050, state, technically, but there's a lot of different ways to cut that pie up. Who keeps the house, who doesn't keep the house, and then there's the capital gains. And like you said, the different accounts that have the taxes. And if you're not good with numbers, you need somebody on your side financially. So that way they can help you, walk you through that and really break it down and understand that for you, especially in complex divorces where there's 401, Ks and retirements and property and those types of things, it gets very complicated, 100% that speaking from experience, for better or worse.

Lisa Zeiderman  
Exactly, exactly. So that's 100% correct. And so you want to actually find someone who is representing you that is familiar with the finances. And you want to also find someone who has a team of people that can help you through the more difficult pieces of it. 

Laurie James  
Yeah, definitely. So as we kind of wrap up, I do like to end with a confession from my guests on your area of expertise, something that we haven't talked about, that you want to share with the listeners.

Lisa Zeiderman  
A confession? Hmm? So I would say this is very tough a confession. I you know, I'm going to tell you something. It's very hard for me to be in a confession situation, because I'm very truthful. And whatever comes into my mind, I usually say, and so I would say that I'm going to confess that I'm not always the nicest person, okay, that I am the most honest person, but I'm not always the nicest person, because nice doesn't always get you to the finish line. Sometimes you need somebody who's a little tougher and who understands the issues and isn't there to be nice.

Laurie James  
Yeah, I'll take honesty over nice any day.

Lisa Zeiderman  
Exactly.

Laurie James  
I wish I would have known you when you were in California. I would have hired you. Thank you, Lisa, for being here and for sharing that very, very valuable information. Where can people find you? If somebody is listening in from New York and wants to locate you.

Lisa Zeiderman  
So people can find me on my blog, lisaziederman.com and there is a contact form there that they can fill out, and then it'll come directly to my email. They could, of course, email me directly at Lz@mzw-law.com they could also call 914 455 1000 and all of those are great ways to reach out to me.

Laurie James  
Wonderful. I'll make sure that that information is in the show notes, so that way somebody can reach out to you. And thank you so much for being here and taking time out of your busy day to share this information with my listeners.

Lisa Zeiderman  
Thank you.

Laurie James  
Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions of a Freebird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a free bird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at laurieejames.com to learn how we can work together, or to sign up for my newsletter so you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe, rate and review and share it with friends so they can find more freedom in their second or third act also. Until next time.