How Collaborative Divorce Helps Families Navigate Separation with Less Stress with Ann Grant

Going through a divorce is one of the most challenging life experiences. I know this firsthand, having navigated my divorce after 26 years of marriage and raising four children. It's a process that can leave you feeling vulnerable and unsure about your future.


Educating yourself about the process is key to making the right decision for you!

In this episode, I sit down with Ann Grant, a divorce attorney, author, and entrepreneur, to dive into the emotional and legal aspects of divorce. Ann shares her own experience of going through a high-conflict divorce and how that shaped her desire to help others navigate their separations. 


We discuss the importance of finding the right divorce process, and Ann explains why the collaborative divorce approach can save money and emotional stress.


Here’s what you’ll learn from this episode: 

• The differences between traditional divorce litigation, mediation, and the collaborative process.  
• Why bringing in mental health professionals and child specialists can help avoid messy custody battles and save money when done right.
• Common mistakes people make during the divorce process and how to avoid them. 
• How to navigate the hard financial decisions that come with divorce. 
• Why it's important to empower yourself and not let emotions or revenge drive your decisions. 

This episode offers helpful advice if you're facing the possibility of divorce or want to know how to support someone going through it. 

Remember, divorce isn’t the end; it can be the beginning of a more empowered and joyful life.

Fly Free Freebirds,
Laurie

These guides will help you take the next step in life. 

Click here to watch my FREE Intro to Somatic Healing Class Replay - Request permission to watch necessary

Click here to learn about my Monthly “Somatic Healing” class -RECOVER

Click here for my FREE “Somatic Healing for Beginners Guide”

Click here for my FREE Core Values Exercise

Click here to purchase my book: Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go

Sign up for my newsletter here to stay current on my upcoming offerings and podcast interviews!

Website

Connect with Ann:
Website: www.FamLawSC.com
Email: Ann@FamLawSC.com

The Divorce Hacker's Guide to Untying the Knot: What Every Woman Needs to Know about Finances, Child Custody, Lawyers, and Planning Ahead

***************************************************************************************
DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL, MEDICAL OR PROFESSIONAL ADVICE. YOU SHOULD CONTACT A LICENSED THERAPIST IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE. YOU SHOULD CONTACT A LICENSED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WITH RESPECT TO ANY MEDICAL ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

Transcript

Laurie James  
Hey, there it's Laurie. And before we get started on today's episode, if you missed my free intro to somatic healing class that I offered two weeks ago, don't worry. I recorded it and you are able to watch it. The link is in the show notes, and I will be offering a once a month somatic healing class. Yesterday was the first one, and it was such a success. The next one will be on October 2. So take a listen to my intro and join me for my next healing class. These are really wonderful ways for us to learn how to regulate our nervous system, regulate our emotions in very easy, simple, bite sized ways, so that way you can continue to heal your past. And I hope you enjoy this episode with my conversation with Ann Grant.

Laurie James  
Welcome to Confessions of a Freebird podcast. I'm your host. Laurie James, a mother, divorcee, recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched A Memoir of Holding on and Letting go. A therapy junkie, relationship coach, somatic healer and now podcaster, I'm a free spirit, and here to lift you up on this podcast, I'll share soulful confessions and empowering conversations with influential experts so you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half. So pop in those earbuds, turn up the volume, and let's get inspired, because my mission is to help you create your most joyful, purpose driven life, one confession at a time. 

Laurie James  
Welcome back, freebirds. Today, we are going to talk about divorce with my guest, Ann Grant. And Ann is an attorney, author, entrepreneur and law professor. Anne did not aspire to be a divorce attorney. In a prior lifetime, she was a corporate litigator, married with three children, but when her seemingly perfect 16 year marriage ended and she experienced a very high conflict divorce, she created a support group for women contemplating divorce. It was in that group that Ann was asked to represent one of the women in her divorce, combining the legal skills she acquired during her years as an experienced litigator with her personal experience as a mother. Needless to say, she was extremely effective, both in and out of the courtroom, and has since represented hundreds of individuals and wrote a best selling book, The Divorce Hacker's guide to Untying the Knot, which I confess I read and reference several times during my own divorce. Her book provides legal, financial and psychological expertise to help you through your divorce. Now, Ann is the founder of family law center of Southern California, and has three offices in Southern California. So thank you, Ann, for being here and welcome.

Ann Grant  
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here with you Laurie.

Laurie James  
Yeah, so as we get started, can you tell us a little bit more about your divorce and that pivotal time when you decided to represent that individual in your support group? 

Ann Grant  
Of course. So as you mentioned, I did not grow up wanting to be a divorce lawyer. I was a corporate litigator. Thought I was happily married three kids in the South Bay, and everything was going along just fine until it wasn't. I then went through an exceedingly high conflict divorce that lasted for about five years, and it was really devastating for all of us, and particularly, I think, the children. And so when I came out of that, I just realized that there had to be a better way. And so that's why I started the support group, not with the idea that I would be a family law attorney, but I really wanted to help women understand the pitfalls associated that can happen as you're moving through the process when your emotions over, for example, and I really wanted to be very helpful based on my experience, to facilitate, if possible, an easier way through the process. So that was how where my heart was. That's where my heart still is in helping individuals move through the process as seamlessly as they can.

Laurie James  
Yeah, and I honor you for doing that because, as you know and you and I have talked about before, divorce is the second most stressful thing anyone can experience. So really, I honor you for helping those women go through that process. Because going through my own divorce, it was probably one of the most difficult times in my life, too. So what was the hardest part about the divorce process for you? Would you say?

Ann Grant  
I would say, for me, personally, the hardest part was we were in court about every six weeks, and most of the time in the courtroom was spent in a custody battle. And finally, what ended up happening is there was a custodial evaluation. And as a result of that, I was awarded full custody of my children, they're with their Dad, for two hours on Saturday for a long period of time. And so the custody battle was really extremely emotionally draining. That's been my experience in working with clients now, that in those situations where couples are fighting over the children, certainly I believe that that's from what I've seen, where people experience the most emotional upset they can get upset over the money as well. But there's kind of a whole different framework that seems to arise, and that I experienced myself when you're dealing with custody issues. So consequently, in my practice now, having become so acutely aware of that, I try whenever I can, and the client is amenable to bring in mental health professionals, coaches like yourself and others, trained and qualified to help them work through issues concerning the children, so that we can try to avoid being in a courtroom and back out with you know, someone in a robe who, at best, maybe has 15 minutes, and while they'd like to help you out, they certainly don't understand all the nuances and what is really in everyone's best interest to move you forward. 

Laurie James  
Right. And just reflecting on my own divorce, I feel like the children are the innocent victims of the divorce, right? They want their family to stay together. They would like their parents to stay together. Ideally, I'm guessing, in most cases, unless it's so chaotic and so stressful. But nobody wants to see their parents divorce, and that was one thing that I really thought about when I was going through my divorce, and I had to think long and hard about that, because they were the innocent victims of a decision. So how do you advise your clients to manage that with a little bit more awareness or mindfulness, without it being using the children as a pawn, so to speak?

Ann Grant  
Yeah, I really appreciate the question, because it's such an important topic. So one of the mechanisms that I've been trained to utilize that I think really is set up to deal with this issue is the collaborative process. And I'll talk about that for a moment and explain this and how it works, because I do really like this feature of the collaborative process. So in collaborative you sign an agreement right at the start both the lawyers for both the parties that are getting divorced, and then the two spouses in the couple, besides an agreement, we're not going to go to court. So that's nice, because court is expensive. There certainly are matters that call for it, if there's domestic violence, for example, or I mean, I am a litigator, so there are certain instances where there's a good and valid reason to be in a courtroom. I actually happen to be in that situation myself. So I intimately understand some if your children are in danger, then that's one of the things that they're there for. But separate, apart from that, assuming that you've got two reasonable people want what's best for the family and the children. Collaborative is great, because in the collaborative process, you're sitting around a conference table, or you're zooming or the pandemic, we'd actually sit around a conference room table and work out solutions, finances and custody, and yet, often we bring in certified divorce coaches in and our specialists with regard to issues concerning children, helping the couple come to the parenting plan that makes sense. Often, what we need to do is have a step up, you know, where maybe it doesn't make sense for one parent to have the kids half the time right out of the box, if, for example, accustomed to that level of care. And so maybe we're working towards that, but we can do it in a very client focused way. We can really come to understand, you know. Children have special needs, and they're different ages. All children have special needs at certain ages, but right have special needs. So through that process where we're really trying to work together, and it's very client focused, I feel that it's exceptionally well suited to addressing the kinds of issues that I ended up needing to face in a courtroom.

Laurie James  
So are you finding in the family law, legal world that more people that are getting divorced want that, or is it something that you end up presenting to the client of you know, here are different options, and these are three different ways, or two different ways, that we can go about it based off of your current situation. What do you find most? 

Ann Grant  
I have both things happening. I am finding more and more that when folks call they're asking for collaborative because they've heard about it. I would still say that the vast majority of people don't really understand the difference between mediation and collaborative for example. 

Laurie James  
Right. 

Ann Grant  
So I do talk about it in my book. I can also explain that now. 

Laurie James  
Yeah, that would be wonderful. 

Ann Grant  
Yeah. And so when folks come in, spend a fair amount of time educating them about the different ways to go through the process and working with them to figure out what they're comfortable with, you know, the direction that they want to go. And I do find that many people are very interested in the collaborative process. When they understand that it's typically 40 to 50% less expensive, they don't have to report it's client focused. I mean, it has many good and valid things going for it that appeal anyone out there who is facing the prospect of getting divorced. 

Laurie James  
And not and not dragging the divorce out for five years, all of those things. So what is the difference then? 

Ann Grant  
Right. So the difference is that when I'm acting as a mediator, I am not representing either person in the couple. I am a neutral and I'm trying to help them arrive in an agreement, and that's true for any mediator. That's the nature of mediation. And so I'm not giving either one of them legal advice. I'm always advising them that they ought to have a consulting attorney for that. I just met with a couple yesterday who their case is so straightforward they may not actually need a consulting attorney. Their children have aged out, both retired, so the kinds of issues where there might be some contention or the need for separate counsel, like the custody issues, which can be emotional or spousal support. Of those issues exist, they just need to divide their assets. So that's very straightforward, but it's also rather unusual, usually, well, bet there are more moving parts. Yeah, so mediation. I mean, people always want that. In fact, I started out going down that path because the last thing my ex husband, who was also a litigator, wanted to do and I wanted to do, was give our money to lawyers. But I found out three sessions in that it wasn't going to work. And that does happen a lot. And so that's why, when people come to me, I really screen for whether, you know, I think it's what the right process is for them to move through it efficiently. So that's how mediation works. And then collaborative really, in my opinion, melds the best attributes of mediation and what we consider to be the more traditional route, where you just go out and hire a divorce lawyer, but you have representation. So in collaborative, as I explained, kind of like mediation, because you're working together and you're not dealing with the deadlines that are imposed by the court system. Whatever you agree on is fine, but you still have counsel. So whoever invented collaborative was brilliant, because they really pulled the best features of each of these before collaborative. You have mediation or go hire a lawyer and you're off to the races. They really thoughtfully pulled the best parts of both of those and put them together and then with the other helping professionals that come into the mix, the child specialist and if you need a forensic accountant, you don't have to go hire one. You can just have one. So you can see right there- 

Laurie James  
Where both parties 

Ann Grant  
In half. So you have one new Okay, so you have this sort of safe container of helping professionals who are holding the space so that you can move through the process and get your divorce done that way.

Laurie James  
So what happens if you have somebody Okay, both parties say, yes, we want to go. We want a collaborative divorce. You even, maybe even sign the document. Does it ever happen where one changes their mind and says, This isn't working for me anymore? And what happens in that situation.

Ann Grant  
So that is the one downside, and always the disclaimer that I make certain my clients are aware of, which is, if you're in the collaborative process, and for whatever reason in this, I've only had this happen one time. So this is a very rare thing. 

Laurie James  
Okay.

Ann Grant  
I say it's I spend a lot of time screening what the right approach is. If my client, for example, decides, you know what, I don't want to collaborate anymore, I want to go to court, then I can't represent them. I'm disqualified. 

Laurie James  
Got it, and so then you- 

Ann Grant  
Because I signed that document at the beginning.

Laurie James  
Right. And then they have to go find another attorney at that point then to represent them. 

Ann Grant  
One and only time I've had that happen, and I actually have seen other situations where people have come to me who are in collaborative and asked me for advice about whether they should stay in it or not. And the only times I've actually seen this happen or in this situation, and this is one of the things I really screen for. Let me go back and answer this question another way. So collaborative is voluntary, and we don't conduct any discovery, we don't issue subpoenas, we're not filing things with the court. So what that means is we're operating on the honor system. And this is really explained at the beginning to everybody, that we're relying on transparency. Okay, so if however you get in there, and let's say, and this is the only time I've seen this issue come up where the collaborative is blown apart. One of the parties has their own business, or businesses. So when someone has their own business, often, always they're running their expenses through the business, right? So often that means, like, their car, their travel, lots of things, you know, and what they're doing, and it's completely legal to do this is they're reducing their taxable income, and they're legally running these expenses through their business, but in family law land, many of those expenses get added back and because what we're trying to figure out is what is the cash available for the support calculation? So if somebody shows no net income and is paying virtually no taxes by the time a forensic goes through and adds back all the things that they can add back in family law land, often at times, that individual has a lot of cash flow that's available for the support calculation. So the only time I've seen collaborative blow apart is where one of the person in the couple situation has decided, You know what, I don't think the other person's being forthcoming about their income, and now I feel like I'm going to need to serve discovery and issue subpoenas, get the information I need to obtain the amount of support I'm entitled to. And so that's one of the things I really screen for. Somebody has their own business. Because, like I said, that's the only time I've seen this become an issue, is whether that we're going to be able to do the amount of analysis that we need to do, and obtain the level of cooperation we'd like to obtain, to do the math we have to do, to figure out we'll support calculation. Does that make sense? 

Laurie James  
Yeah, makes total sense. And I think that that was a great thank you for explaining it that way, because I think so many people, when they go through a divorce, they've never gone through a divorce before, and, you know, they're already stressed out about the whole process, and to just be able to sit down and explain the different options. I mean, that's huge. Because, like, I had no idea, you know, all my different options going into my divorce, and you kind of go into it blind. So it's nice to have that framework. Thank you for that. 

Ann Grant  
To further explain. So what I have experienced because I'm I was an outsider, having been a partner at a big law firm where I decided to go down this family law path. So what I found coming from the outside of family law land is that there are many family law lawyers that do one or the other, right? So let's say you go and interview them, and all they're telling you about is their skills in the courtroom, because that's all they do, because that skill set is very different from the skill set that you utilize in collaborative which is much more mediation focused. Practice Collaborative Law, you have to be trained. And so I also am trained in collaborative law, and have many speeds. So I you know one of the. Things that I like to do, spend a lot of time with a new client to figure it out. What is the best way to move you through this process where you need to be? And I, you know, I go to court all the time. I do a lot of collaborative work, and I act as a mediator. But what happens is, when you're going out there and interviewing attorneys, there are also a lot of family law attorneys who don't aren't comfortable in a courtroom, and they only do mediation or collaborative. So it's important, and I don't think people are aware of that, that you know, then they're sort of getting spoon fed like this is what we need to do is- 

Laurie James  
Right. Because that's what their area of expertise is. 

Ann Grant  
They went to a person. They didn't even realize that they went to a family law lawyer who only goes to court, or because you can a lot more money by going to court, or a family law attorney that only does mediation and collaborative because they are not comfortable going to court. So I think it's really important that people understand that they have these options, and it's just like any other thing. If you're a medical condition, you want to understand what your options are for course of treatment. You want partnered with your specialist and then or whoever's treating you and working together to figure out what the best course, what the best path forward is.

Laurie James  
And get a second opinion if necessary. 

Ann Grant  
Right. 

Laurie James  
Right? I mean, if you're feeling off with the lawyer that you're sitting across from, or something doesn't feel right, honor that because that person is representing you, and you become very close with your your attorney based off of my experience. So you want to make sure that you work well together, and that you're on the same page, and that, you know, they're timely with responses, and they have a staff to support the process. It's not just one individual. So what happens when somebody one of the two individuals that's getting divorced ends up dragging their feet, or they start the process and then either collaborative or through mediation, and then one is like, well, they agree to something, in theory, but aren't willing to sign something, or aren't willing to make the next steps. What happens then?

Ann Grant  
Yeah, so that's actually one of the things I'm screening for when I'm meeting with clients, because in mediation and collaborative, it's voluntary. So if the other person is unwilling or unable to collaborate, not be the best way to go, at least with the court system. You don't have to have the other person's cooperation to get divorced. It moves you through the process. So I'm always looking to see whether you know, I already talked about some of the red flags if somebody has their own business and the extent to which they're willing to be forthcoming and transparent. So is the other person willing and able to collaborate, like if they really don't want to get divorced, or they have some sort of incapacity, or even substance abuse, I kind of feel too weight. I'm of two minds on substance abuse or mental disorders, because people in those situations, litigation can be very inflaming for them, everything's so much worse, whereas the collaborative process is a softer process. So in some respects, it's easier to deal with them in that place. But your point is a really good one, which is, if someone is so hobbled by their inability to move forward then collaborate isn't going to work, because there's nothing I can do to force them to move along. Is if I'm in a courtroom and proceeding in a more traditional way, I can file things and get the case done, whether they're wanting to get it done or not. I mean, it's difficult, but it's certainly doable. And then one other feature that's related or answer that's related to your question, is we often in matters that are not collaborative, are the traditional type of matter, what we will often do, because we really are looking for ways to resolve things outside of court. For all the discussed often, we'll hire a retired judge, and we will go spend a day with them, and they will work with us to get a resolution. And when we do that while we're sitting there, and we're working on this throughout the day, we're creating what's called a 664.6 agreement. That's a reference to a code section under the Family Law. Then what happens is it's sort of a bare bones agreement with whatever the parties have decided on. It could be concerning all the issues, custody, finances. Etc. Everyone signs it, and then you have an enforceable agreement. So then if, for some reason, someone box or says, Oh, I don't want to do that, or starts dragging their feet, you can take that to court and get that entered as a judgment. So we have a number of different mechanisms that we can use to facilitate getting an agreement enacted. 

Laurie James  
Yes, so thank you. That is a beautiful explanation for that, because I did not know that that was an option about getting a retired judge to come in and help with that process. So what would you say are the top three mistakes that people that are getting divorced make based off of the people that you've represented and they're soon to be exes or spouses that they're divorcing. 

Ann Grant  
A number one mistake is when someone wants revenge through course process. And so when that happens, in fact, when I hear that now, I usually just tell them, I'm not their girl. There are plenty of other family law attorneys in Southern California who will be happy to take their matter, but I'm not interested in joining forces with someone who has that mindset, because it's expensive, it's time consuming and it's non productive. And I think Annie Lamont said it best when she said revenge, just like drinking rat poison and waiting for the other person to die, being very bitter and having gone through this process myself, I committed to myself that out of all the things, I would not be bitter, and it's a really hard thing in certain situations to body that. But if someone really, really is out for revenge and wants to use me to exact it, I'm not interested in doing that, and that is going to be a fool's errand for them. Number one, the second big mistake, that's of a piece of that, is letting your emotions get in the way. So it's really important to work with, I think, for almost everybody, a therapist in the collaborative cases, we have divorce coaches, and their job is to help folks going through this process take their emotions out of the room when we're working through the analytics of the math, so to speak, also the reality of how custody is handled, because it is true that courts more and more, and whether we're in a courtroom or not, I'm always keeping that in the back of my mind when I'm negotiating or supporting my clients and negotiating a deal, because, you know, that's like the last place you want to be, but we're going to end up if this doesn't work. And so with regard to custody, is that in this day and age, where it's more common now for both parents to work, as opposed to when we were growing up, there's no presumption that you know, mom should have the kids all the time, or the dad should but rather, unless you know one side can show that the children's health, safety and welfare is at issue, which we can often show if there's substance abuse or mental illness or other forms of neglect. But absent that, they're going to do a couple things. They're looking at each parent having frequent and continuing contact and maintaining stability for the kids. So sometimes that means, as I mentioned before, we start with one parent having the children more than the other, but working towards a more equitable schedule, and people can get really hung up on that and not appreciate the realities of what is happening now in the in Southern California, with respect to custody, they come in with a preconceived notion of how they think it should be, and that's not how it's going to end up. So that's Nope. And then the third issue is when women continue to listen to their husbands and their husbands are telling them what to do, and they fail to understand that this person who you have loved and trusted for often, many, many years no longer has your best interest at heart, and so it's very frustrating when I'm working with someone and we've laid out a strategy. This doesn't happen often, but it still does happen. We've laid out a strategy, they're on board, and then they just go sideways because their spouse is telling them, oh no, we have to do this, that or the others. So it's not prudent to you know, once you you've done your due diligence and you found a really good and qualified lawyer, it's not prudent to just do what your husband or spouse. Is telling you to do just because you've always done that it, you know, it really requires shifting gears, but it's really important to do that so that you can make wise decisions that are going to have an enormous impact on your future.

Laurie James  
Well, right? And a lot of the listeners that tune in here are in midlife, and so by the time you get there, you typically have a nest egg and oftentimes making going through a divorce and making these very difficult decisions, it's one of the biggest financial decisions of your life. So why would you trust somebody who you are separating from or going different pathways? Why would you trust somebody that they have your best interest at heart, regardless of who asked for the divorce?

Ann Grant  
Yeah, and it's been astonishing to me the number of times in working with I mean, this issue only comes up in my experience when I'm working with women who've been in sort of a traditional relationship where, you know the husband was, in the cases where this has happened, the husband is typically the primary or sole breadwinner, very dependent to happen to become very dependent upon them for their financial support, and we are very analytical. So you know, it's math. We're running numbers. We're doing the analyzing. If you know it's a situation where someone has their own business, it's always advisable to get a forensic involved and do the type of analysis I already described, a perquisite analysis, and you have to value the business, because that's a community asset. And so I have had a number of cases where these gals will come in, they sit there and nod their head, they understand, you know, it's a long haul. This is not going to happen overnight. We have to do our homework. We have to gather documents like we have to do our due diligence, essentially. And I have had a number of occasions where they just don't have the fortitude to lock in and let us, you know, really do the work to get them across the finish line in a way where they're really getting what they're entitled to, and they will buckle under the pressure that their husbands, who are often entrepreneurs and have their own companies or in finance and sophisticated in that regard, what they're doing, they're really pressuring them, and they'll just bail out. And so it's very frustrating for me, because we're just trying to to help them get what they're entitled to. But I do see that happen, and so that's why I'm flagging that, because I think it's really important, and it only comes up when I'm dealing with women in that scenario I've laid out.

Laurie James  
Yeah, and I get it, and I felt some, I mean, just reflecting back on my own divorce, I had some of that pressure, and I felt some of that pressure too, going through my own divorce, and at that point, you have a choice, and it's hard, and it's not easy, but it's like you can let them continue to control you, or acquiesce to them, or you can find the strength and the courage to stand up for yourself and really fight for what you feel is in your best interest and your kids and your futures, families best interest. And you know, so I, I love that we're kind of going a little bit deeper into that conversation, because I also see friends and I have clients too that kind of gets stuck there and somatically, there's reasons why, from a somatic place, a therapeutic place, a coaching place, that we can go and get into those areas to really kind of evaluate what's going on with the person. But it's also that power. It's the power struggle. And you know, this strong, dominant, entrepreneurial, successful man who has this very strong personality, and maybe the female is a little bit more subservient, if, you know, especially if they stayed home. I mean, I wanted that traditional family, but I kind of felt that too. And I was just like, but I had a moment I was like, I need to stand up for what I feel is rightly mine. And if I don't, if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

Ann Grant  
You said that so well, and it sounds like you've lifted a bit. So you understand, yeah, so you're right. I mean, it's similar to, back to the medical analogy, if you had some ailment, a heart ailment, or cancer, you know? And you, you vetted all the doctors and found the best one for you and locked into treatment. I don't think most people would bail out halfway through and just be like, Well, I'm just not going to do this anymore, because this is hard and whatever you know, like you would stay the course and come out the other side of it, hopefully healed, right? So similar to that, but I do see this happen quite a bit, enough that it's, like, really worth talking about, but it's very similar to that trajectory of, like, at least the way we practice, you know, it's like, here's the treatment plan. There are no surprises. Like, it's, we're very, you know, we talk with our clients and explain to them, like, here's what we need to do. Here are the steps in the process. We can't always say exactly how long it will take, just like with a medical proceed, you know, treatment like that, but we can explain where they are in the tunnel, for sure, but yeah, a lot of them will just bail out and not have the fortitude to see it through. And then, certainly, if you are in that situation, and you don't have the capacity to start a law firm or your own medical practice or something to, like, generate a lot of wealth in probably a fairly short period of time, because now you're instead of being in your 20s, you're in your 40s, maybe, and some women can do that, but if you don't like that, is for sure going to be the most important financial decision of your whole life. Like whatever get out of that is going to have to see you through. So it's very worthwhile to till the soil and do what needs to be done, to set the guardrails so that you're taken care of. 

Laurie James  
Yeah, and people don't always see that. And as you were sharing that, and as I was reflecting, I think a lot of it also, I'll speak for myself, when I was in my relationship, I did stay home. I stayed home for over 20 years, raising four kids. And yeah, over time, my worth got picked away at, right. And so there was a lack of self confidence. Because when somebody is constantly telling you, why are you doing that? You know, that's wrong. You're an idiot. You know, maybe not in those exact words, but that's the sentiment that's getting communicated and you don't feel worthy. And so it's that worthiness of you know, and that's when I got to the point I'm like, Okay, I need to find the strength and the courage to stand up for myself and to stand up for what is right for me. And if somebody is listening and they can't do that, come talk to me. Talk to a therapist, talk to somebody. I don't care if it's me or not, but do it for yourself and do it for your family for sure.

Ann Grant  
You know that's really at the core of why I'm doing what I'm doing, because the work I do, you know, we've talked a lot about, sort of the analytical aspects of it and whatnot, but I feel like it's my, kind of, my calling, my mission, to really help empower all people, but particularly women, in this process. Because that was my experience, and I was in a different situation. I did continue to work most of the time, but nevertheless, I found going through the process and being on my own and then creating like, you have something meaningful to work, to be of service, that is a business, but nevertheless, like, that's kind of my how I come to this was a very, very, the most empowering experience I've ever been through. And I think it's really important that people understand that if they're in a very bad situation in their marriage, they don't have to stay stuck. There's a way through it. It doesn't have to be all bad, like, if you work your way through it and you have good support, a good team working with you, it's a way that you can start over and even have, I believe, a new and better experience of your life, which was my experience, and sounds like it was probably yours.

Laurie James  
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and there's, I don't remember the name of this therapist, but there was a therapist that is very well known that says we can allow our experience to destroy us, define us or make us stronger, right? And so what do you choose? I mean, I think you and I, we chose to allow our experiences and our divorce to make us stronger. And it's not always easy. You know, this is as you know, it's hard work, and you work with people every day, and so do I. It's not easy, but when you get to the other side, it is so much better, and so much more joyful and so much happier as I'm seeing this smile on your face too. So I think that's a really wonderful place to end, and as we come to a close, is there a confession that you want to share with our listeners that may be on this topic that we haven't discussed yet? 

Ann Grant  
Well, that would be the confession is that divorce isn't a dirty word, and I really think we need to reconceptualize how we think of it in our society. Because if you look at the statistics, everybody thinks that half of the marriages end in divorce. But it's actually that's not true, because if you factor in second marriages, 63% end in divorce. Marriages, 79% end in divorce. So if you do the math, I did it once, I think it comes out to around 62 point something per you know, the mean of marriages. So there's no other thing I can think of where, if the majority of however, whatever happens is x, that we demonize X. I mean, it's just so, for lack of a better way to say it, ask backwards. And what, what we're seeing is that, as people are living longer, the gray divorces or silver splitting, or whatever you want to call it, is just exponentially exploding. And so, you know, and it's just a function of longevity. We used to live to be 55 and so that makes sense why the retirement age is what it is. And like marriages, you know, a single marriage would last, but you know where right now the life expectancy is, I think it's 72 but they're saying that very soon, with medical advances, we're going to all be living much, much longer. Where you talk listen to these scientists on the podcast who talk about this, then the next thing they talk about is marriage, because they're scientists, but they all recognize, like it's highly unlikely you would be with one person for 100 years. 

Laurie James  
Right. You grow, you change differently. You know, have different interests. That's a long time to be with one person.

Ann Grant  
We need to be more understanding that this is not abnormal, and it's not a terrible bad thing, and like, sort of change the way we move through it, which is why, you know, advocated for some of the things we talked about today.

Laurie James  
Yeah, and it's not taboo, and that, you know, I can remember feeling that too, of like, Oh, my God, I'm a failure. And it's like, no, I'm not a failure. It just means that this relationship has taken its course, and it's now time to go our separate ways. 

Ann Grant  
I would even say I take it a step further. I think it's very courageous to end a relationship that's not working. It's yeah, you're just stay stuck. So not only are you not a failure, and I know this from having done this, I really believe that it's a very courageous thing if it's not working, to do what I think is the right thing for everybody involved and uncouple in a way that is to the extent you can in, you know it will be in everyone's best interest, if it's a bad relationship, if you do it the right way.

Laurie James  
Yeah, agreed very well said, and I think that's a great note to end on. How can people find you who want to connect with you? 

Ann Grant  
Well, we have the Family Law Center of Southern California with offices in Manhattan Beach, Brentwood in Orange County, and you can find us on the web, www.famlawsc.com so the Family Law Center of Southern California. 

Laurie James  
Wonderful. And I'll have that link in the show notes. And thank you again for your time. And I know you're a busy gal, and I appreciate you taking time to share this valuable information with our listeners. 

Ann Grant  
My pleasure. 

Laurie James  
Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions of a Freebird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a freebird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at laurieejames.com to learn how we can work together, or to sign up for my newsletter so you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately, find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe, rate and review and share it with friends so they can find more freedom in their second or third act, also. Until next time.