How Trauma Responses Lead to People-Pleasing and How to Start Healing with Kati Morton

Have you ever felt lost after putting all your effort into pleasing others? 
Maybe you’ve spent years being the responsible one, the strong one, the helper, the one who “just handles it”… until one day you wake up and feel hollow. Exhausted.  Disconnected from the person you used to be.

Maybe you’ve spent years trying to “doing it all”,  only to wake up one day and wonder where you lost yourself along the way? 

In this episode, I sit down with Kati Morton, licensed therapist, author, and one of the most trusted mental health voices online. Her new book, Why Do I Keep Doing This?, dives into the emotional and nervous system patterns that keep us stuck in cycles of people-pleasing, low self-esteem, overgiving, perfectionism, and self-abandonment.

Together, we explore how unresolved trauma responses shape our beliefs about love, worth, confidence, and why so many of us feel like we need to be “good” or “please others” to feel safe. Together Kati and I discuss what a fawn response is,  the deeper reasons why we fawn or people-please and the emotional cost it takes on us.

You’ll learn:

• Why people pleasing begins as a survival strategy
• Why rebuilding self worth is about changing patterns
• What your inner critic is trying to protect you from
• How to spot patterns that lead to burnout and resentment
• Why confidence grows through small acts of self trust
• The difference between guilt and false guilt in boundary setting
• How somatic practices support healing and resilience
• Practical tools to regulate stress and shift old patterns

If you’re in a season of personal growth, or if you’re tired of feeling exhausted, overlooked, or in cycles of self-doubt, this episode will offer compassion, clarity, and a path home to yourself.
Tune in. This conversation is a breath of fresh air for anyone ready to reclaim the parts of themselves they had to hide to survive.

Much love,
Laurie

Click here to sign up for my "FREE Online Somatic Workshop - Find Your Calm During the Holidays" on Thursday, Dec 4th at 4 PST 

Click here for a video on how to leave a review to receive a free somatic stabilization/grounding exercise. The podcast graphic is different from the current one. Once you complete it and send me a picture I will send you the video. My email is laurie@laurieejames.com

Thank you in advance. 

Click here to learn about my NEW “Nervous System Regulation Starter Kit” 

Free Resources

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Click here to purchase my book: Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL, MEDICAL OR PROFESSIONAL ADVICE. YOU SHOULD CONTACT A LICENSED THERAPIST IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE. YOU SHOULD CONTACT A LICENSED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WITH RESPECT TO ANY MEDICAL ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

Transcript

Laurie James: Hey there. It's Laurie. Before we get started on today's episode, I wanted to let you know that I am offering a free somatic workshop today, December 4, at 4 PM Pacific time. It's a great way to reset your nervous system before the upcoming holidays, and I'll share easy somatic practices that you can use anytime throughout the holidays to regulate your nervous system. If you'd like to join me, just click the link in the show notes to sign up, and I'll send you the Zoom link.

You are going to love today's conversation with my guest, Kati Morton. We dive deep into what it takes to build confidence and people-pleasing, and we talk about her new book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? which I highly recommend. If you live in the LA area, she's going to be at Zibby's Bookstore up in Santa Monica, December 8 and 9. I'm planning on being there, so enjoy this conversation, and I hope to see you at her book signing at Zibby's in Santa Monica, or in my free somatic workshop later today.

Laurie James: Welcome to Confessions of a Free Bird podcast. I'm your host, Laurie James, a mother, divorcee, recovering caregiver, the author of Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding on and Letting Go, a therapy junkie, relationship coach, somatic healer, and now podcaster. I'm a free spirit and here to lift you up. On this podcast, I'll share soulful confessions and empowering conversations with influential experts so you can learn to spread your wings and make the most of your second half. So pop in those earbuds, turn up the volume, and let's get inspired, because my mission is to help you create your most joyful, purpose-driven life, one confession at a time.

Laurie James: Hello, free birds, and welcome! Today, I am so thrilled to be sitting down with Kati Morton. Kati is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a best-selling author. She's also a longtime mental health educator who has been helping people make sense of their emotions for more than a decade. You may know Kati from her hugely popular YouTube channel, where she talks in straightforward conversation and has reached over 1.5 million subscribers and 150 million views. She is a trusted resource for people navigating trauma, anxiety, and emotional overwhelm.

She's the author of the upcoming book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? which we will discuss, which dives deep into the emotional loops we get stuck in and what it really takes to change them. Kati also hosts the long-running podcast, Ask Kati Anything, which I recommend and listened to several times before we recorded this. She speaks worldwide for organizations like Google, YouTube, and Unilever about resilience and trauma literacy. I have to confess, I could have used you in my life like 40 years ago, Kati, but you were probably still either not born or too young to be doing this type of work. But I'm so glad you're helping so many people now. So thank you so much for sharing this time with me today and having this conversation.

Kati Morton: Of course, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Laurie James: Yes. So can you begin with just sharing with me and our listeners a little more about your personal journey and how you became a therapist? Also, why do you think so many people are resonating with the work that you're doing and the topics you're sharing online?

Kati Morton: So I've always loved people. I know that might sound like an obvious thing, but I've loved working with people. I always used to get bored at any kind of job I had to do. Once you've mastered it, it was like, what's next? But being a therapist, it's always changing because people are always changing, and I always really love the challenge of trying to figure it out with them, you know? It's such a privilege to get to walk alongside people as they figure it out.

My desire for it started way back when I was probably in like, middle school or high school, where I loved being the secret keeper for my friends. I was always so proud that they would never be leaked by me. I always held their confidence and I took a lot of pride in that. Then my high school, randomly, I think I was like my junior or senior year, they opened up a Psych 101 kind of class. From there, I was hooked and applied to school, went through undergrad and grad, and did my hours, and ta-da. Here we are!

I started my YouTube channel back in 2011. I think the reason that what I do resonates is essentially because a lot of times we just don't know what we don't know. We all share in this human experience, but we just don't always understand. Like, why is this so hard? Like my book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? Why am I so uncomfortable? Why is this happening to me? We can have a lot of questions and there aren't a ton of answers. My goal is to try to educate and empower the best I can. For a lot of people, it's meeting them where they're at. We might not have a therapist to ask just yet, or a friend we think we can confide in, but you can take to the internet, and you can search things, and then you can get answers.

Laurie James: Yeah, and that's a beautiful thing. Before we dive into some other topics, are we experiencing so much more mental health issues? Is that because we're more aware now and we have these resources? Or is it that combination of technology that's come into our lives that's really tearing us apart from that human interaction and connection?

Kati Morton: I think it's both. It's a combo, right? I do think that we know more now so people are more apt to get diagnosed. Even people my age—I'm 41—are just now getting diagnosed with autism or ADHD, or, oh my God, that's seasonal depression! Like, I just thought that was just how it was, you know? So I think a lot of us are finally getting diagnosed, and so that's making the numbers go up.

But we cannot discredit the power of social media in good and bad ways. I think a lot of us feel very overstimulated, overwhelmed. I was just reading a research article, actually last night, about how we're not bored anymore, and how bad that is for creativity and for the brain. I feel that too. Like, I make a point of journaling frequently. It helps me kind of like, see what I'm doing and essentially asking myself, Why do I keep doing this? a place to talk about it. In my journal, sometimes I'll find myself reaching for my phone to numb out. So I think it's not good for us. We know it. You know, we feel it. I do it too. It's like, if I'm in something and I'm like, Oh, let me just go check my phone or, Oh, who just texted me? It's a huge distraction, and I have to work at not doing it too. I think for the younger generations, I didn't grow up with technology either, and so these kids nowadays that do, I think it's going to be even more challenging. So that could be a whole separate conversation in itself.

Laurie James: So I'm going to switch it up. My question to start out with is confidence is something that I have struggled with most of my life, and I think a lot of people struggle with confidence. People that are going through big life changes, whether it's losing a spouse or going through a divorce, or kids leaving the nest, whatever it is, or a breakup, career shift, that takes its toll on confidence. Can you talk a little bit more about that from your perspective and what you see and why we struggle so much with it?

Kati Morton: Yeah, confidence is such an interesting issue because it comes from so many places, right? We can track confidence a lot of times back to our how we were raised. I think parents don't always realize that when you try to protect your child too much, you can sometimes get in the way of them trying and failing and learning how to do something better. Or if our parent wasn't there at all, it was, you just had to figure it out, and then that means you failed a lot, and no one was there to support so you're like, I guess I'm just not good at this, right? Either way, we can kind of come out of our adolescence and our adulthood and feel like, I don't even know what I'm doing.

I also think with timing, if you think about how our life unfolds for many of us, we maybe got married in our 20s, so we never really had a ton of time to be like, who am I, and what do I want to do? And do I like the way that I'm doing this and giving us that time to essentially build confidence, because I do a lot of what is called Dialectical Behavior Therapy or DBT. In DBT, one of the key components of building confidence is what's known as building mastery. What that really means is just a fancy way of saying, you try to get good at something. Try something and try to get better. It doesn't mean you have to be the best. It just means like, hey, let's say I really like to cook a whole chicken, but it never turns out right. It's too dry here and too not done there. But I get better at it and I can do it properly, that makes me feel good about myself. It's all those small experiences we have that help build that confidence.

Unfortunately, a lot of us, number one, don't know how. Number two, don't have the energy or the know-how to do those things, right? Don't even recognize it. The third is, life is so distracting. If we're busy getting married and building our career, having children, and wearing all these hats, like women often do this. It's not just women, but we often are caregivers.

Laurie James: So we give a lot to others, forgetting to give to ourselves, and we can almost lose ourselves in it. We wonder, oh, worth... Oh, not almost. I'm guilty of that. I mean, I was married for 26 years, together with my ex-husband for 28. I did stay home. I raised my kids, then I was caring for my elderly parents, and I completely lost myself. As well as I also had a partner who chipped away at my self-confidence in the relationship. I think that does happen, especially over time. It's one of those things that I think I struggled with confidence when I was younger, too, because I had the parents that, well, you dropped something and then you were shamed for it, or you did something, you know, I always felt like I had to do things right, or my brothers would make fun of me. It was like you had to get it right, you had to be good, or you were embarrassed. You were shamed for it. I think that's common for people to experience.

Kati Morton: Yes, and not to make like, this is definitely the correlation. But I'm not surprised that your ex-husband chipped away because you were probably kind of used to that conversation. The thing that we don't realize is external conversations become internal ones, and then we take it with ourselves and we're like, I am not good at this. I can't do this. I remember I took this course once that was about creativity, and we started the class was like, I have to say I'm not really creative. And the guy that was leading it was like, I don't accept that. Stop talking to yourself that way. You're putting creativity on a pedestal, and it's right there with you. He's like, I encourage you to notice how often you try to say that, and I want you to not allow that conversation.

Laurie James: That's beautiful. Can you go a little deeper? Because you said external conversations become internal conversations. That was a great example that you gave. I'd love to jump in a little deeper on that.

Kati Morton: Yeah, of course. I think growing up, we hear a lot about ourselves from people around us, right? Parents who say like, Oh, you're so good at that, or Oh, you're so smart, or you're so pretty, or you're so stupid, you're so, you're such an idiot. I can't believe you do that. We can hear all sorts of messages from parents, teachers, siblings, friends, the whole gamut, and the most frequent conversations are the ones that we're going to internalize, meaning that then those external conversations become internal ones.

A one-off of somebody saying something whatever, we can poo-poo it. We can push it back. We don't have to agree with it. But if every day from let's say our family, we hear, you're so stupid, you're such a loser, then we start to believe it. It is fact. Then our internal dialog then becomes, I'm such a loser, I'm so stupid.

The reason for that, a lot of people like, Why? Why does my body do that? Why would it hurt me like that? The real truth is that our nervous system and our body as a whole loves patterns, and it likes to know what to expect. If it's used to hearing, You're so stupid, you're so lazy, you're such an idiot, then it keeps telling you that, and it keeps looking for things in your environment to prove it, because it's like, I know how to deal with this. Because this is familiar. We mistake familiar or comfortable for healthy when familiar and comfortable is just that. It's just familiar, it's just comfortable, and it's what we knew, and our nervous system was always going to be attracted to that.

So we have to like slowly but surely... This is why change is difficult, not impossible, but it can feel a little tricky at first. It's hard for us to break out of it because it feels uncomfortable and unfamiliar, and our nervous system doesn't like the unknown because it puts us at risk, right? It feels very risky. That's essentially what I talk about in my book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? is like, how do we unlearn those patterns? How do I get out of this continual pattern of getting into relationships where I'm always made to be the one that's lesser than or the one that gives more, or whatever? How do I stop doing that?

Laurie James: So without giving away too many specifics in your book, can you give one or two examples of where somebody would start if they're listening to this conversation and realizing, Oh, this resonates with me. I see a part of myself in this conversation. Where would they start?

Kati Morton: Yeah, the book itself, I structured it so that you're kind of going in order. I'm using air quotes in order because it might not be the right order for you, but you're following me on my journey to better understand my own issues with patterns and control and like, Why do I keep doing this? The first chapter is really about like the blueprint. I think that's a good place to start.

We're talking a little bit about how you were raised, right? If you were raised in an environment where you were told one thing or another, or had helicopter parents who never... whatever experiences you had, we have to reflect on that, because that gives us an idea of where to start. The reason I say that is because in my own work...

Laurie James: And I share this in the book, is like, a lot of my childhood, my dad was away from home because he worked away. He'd be on contract in Alabama and Alaska and Montana and everywhere. We were in Washington State. I thought in my little kid brain, well, I want him to be here all the time. I loved my dad. He was so much fun, and I hated when he was gone. So I thought, well, if I do better in sports or school, then he'll come back and he'll spend more time, right?

Even without a real conversation being had, as children, we try to make sense of things. My making sense was, I had to be perfect. So this is getting into like, how it shows up, right? I had to be perfect, because if I was perfect, then Dad would come home more. Adult me can say, Kati, that's stupid. That doesn't make any sense. But little kid me didn't know any better. It was the best way I could make sense of it. What I found is that I had to recognize times in my life when perfectionism was at play, because that was an indicator that I'm acting out of a belief that I don't want to have anymore.

I know that that might take you a while to come around to. Be patient with yourself, because you kind of have to figure out what these old beliefs you have about yourself and your family are, and then how they're impacting you today, and how it shows up for you. Everyone's going to be different. The main ones I talk about are perfectionism, people-pleasing, and like shrinking myself, feeling like I can't take up space. That's not okay. That's how I know again, I'm acting out of this old belief, this old pattern, pattern I don't want to have.

Laurie James: Yeah, yeah. And things can be coupled like you can have people-pleasing and low self-confidence, along with lack of boundaries. Oftentimes, these things are layered, at least that's what I have experienced on my healing journey.

Kati Morton: No, they're 100%. I talk about boundaries and all sorts of stuff, and I'm horrible at it. I'm also conflict-averse. I talk about not liking conflict. They're so... and sometimes I don't know if I would say this in the book—I may have edited this piece out. When I was writing, I kept thinking, God, it's like whack-a-mole. It's everywhere. Like, I think I got one under control. Yeah, I'm not people-pleasing anymore, yay. Oh crap, perfectionism. Oh no.

Laurie James: It's like, so many different things. You're like, trying to put down all the fires at once.

Kati Morton: Yep, and you only have two... it's just overwhelming. Again, I know better. I don't do better, but I'm working on it.

Laurie James: Yes, so thank you for diving deeper into that. Can we talk about people-pleasing a little bit and in your mind, like, what is the simple definition of people-pleasing? Because I definitely struggle with that less now because my kids are out of the house, but I definitely did as a child and in my marriage, for sure.

Kati Morton: Yeah, I still struggle. So you're not alone. It's like, we need to join like, like, PPA, People-Pleasers Anonymous.

Laurie James: Right, you can be the president and I'll be the co-president.

Kati Morton: Exactly. Perfect, perfect.

Laurie James: Hey, Free Birds, I wanted to take a quick pause in our conversation to share something I've created just for you. If you've been curious about nervous system regulation, but aren't sure where to start, I put together a Nervous System Regulation Starter Kit, a gentle, practical guide to help you begin feeling safer and more grounded in your body. Inside it, you'll find simple daily practices, easy-to-use worksheets to help you track your nervous system patterns, and three guided somatic practices you can return to again and again. These tools are designed to help you show, not just tell your nervous system that you're safe in the present moment. It's normally a $59 value, but I'm offering it for just $29 because I want this to be accessible for anyone ready to begin their healing journey. Head to the link in the show notes to grab yours and start feeling more regulated and connected today. Now let's get back to the episode.

Kati Morton: Being a people-pleaser is something that I used to wear as a badge of honor, thinking it made me good. I'm pleasing other people. But the truth is that people-pleasing has nothing to do with anybody else. It's all to do with you, because people-pleasing is our way of trying to assuage our own anxiety about someone else being upset.

What I mean by that is that I would try to make sure, let's say, my husband was happy and pleased, quote, unquote, pleased, because I'm not comfortable with conflict. I don't like to see him upset because I don't know how to deal with it, and it makes me really anxious, and I get really stressed out, and I get overwhelmed. So in order for me to feel okay, I tried to manipulate him into feeling better. That's really what people-pleasing is. It's a form of manipulation.

Laurie James: Population, such a horrible thing. It's not good, but we all do it. That's really just done because it makes me feel more calm. And it helps us get our needs met right, as well, because then you can stay connected with that person.

Kati Morton: Yes, exactly. So I think people-pleasing is often misunderstood. Like I said, for years and years and years, I wore it as a badge of honor, thinking it makes me such a good friend, a good person, a good partner. It wasn't until my therapist said, you know, it's really just manipulation, because you're so uncomfortable. I'm like, you know, how dare you.

Laurie James: But it was right. But right. And from a nervous system standpoint, that doing so allows us to feel safe. But what I've noticed in myself and when I see other people do it and tell me if I'm wrong, is it also can create hypervigilance in us, so we're constantly like, scanning of like, what do I need to do to make them happy? In severe situations, of, how can I stay on top of this? How can I, you know, anticipate somebody else's needs so that way I make sure that everything runs smoothly?

Kati Morton: Yes, you're 100% correct. We end up putting everyone's needs ahead of our own. We essentially light ourselves on fire to keep somebody else warm, because of the fact that in order for us to feel okay, everybody else has to be okay. We can burn ourselves out doing that, making sure that everybody is settled. Everything is going to plan. Everybody's happy. We lose touch with ourselves too in the process, which is kind of the day. I mean, there's obviously the downside is you're manipulating people, but it's more so the fact that you like, lose touch with yourself because you're so focused on everybody else.

I think it's important for people to understand that there's nothing wrong with you. Our nervous system is wired to look in our environment for threats, right? We think a threat has to be a physical threat. No, emotional threats. Those can actually be more painful. So our nervous system is always looking like is there anything emotionally that could overwhelm me, that could stress me out, that could hurt me in some way? Then we do our best to attack that in some way and make it go away. That's why we're always reading the room, walking on eggshells. People-pleasers will be the first to notice if someone's energy is off or the vibe has shifted. We'll swear that someone's upset with us, and we might even berate them. Are you upset with me? Are you mad at me? Or Did you? We keep asking because we feel the slightest difference when that difference could be they just didn't get as much sleep, or they were in a bunch of traffic on their way over, or who...

Laurie James: Right, right, right, they're tired, or they had a stressful day.

Kati Morton: And so that's why that hypervigilance, because we're essentially trying to make sure we're safe. So you have to give your nervous system a little pat on the back, like, Thanks for keeping me safe, but we're okay. You know, we don't have to do this all the time. You can let go and you can let down a little bit. You don't need to be on point all the time.

Laurie James: So what role does people-pleasing play in eroding our confidence?

Kati Morton: Oh, it's a great connection and a great question, because when we don't consider ourselves, you have to remember people-pleasing really, we're so focused on everyone else as a way to calm us that we often forget about what we needed and who we are and what we can do. We base a lot of our belief about self on how other people react. So if someone doesn't mirror back to us that we're amazing and perfect and wonderful, then we believe what they say, that we're terrible, selfish, or whatever. So people-pleasing really gives our power away. It means that my emotional state is completely related to how you respond to me.

Laurie James: Yeah, if you're okay, then I'm okay. Yes.

Kati Morton: And that isn't the place of empowerment, right? That's not a place of confidence. That's a place of passive and subservient and just going along to keep the peace. I feel like confidence can't grow in a space like that.

Laurie James: Yeah. So in the somatic world, people-pleasing is what we call the fawn response, which is a trauma response. So can you go a little deeper into what types of traumas might cause us to people-please and to fall into this fawn response?

Kati Morton: Yeah, and I love that we're talking about the fawn response, because people often think it's fight or flight. But there's also fawning and freeze, where fawn means like extreme people-pleasing, where we have to please someone so much so that we hope they won't hurt us again, right? I know people think abuse has to be this big term, or trauma is a big term. It means I was in a big accident, or I went to war.

Good examples of traumas that could lead to fawn responses is emotional neglect, meaning that it all looked good on paper. Maybe we were raised in a house where we had food in the fridge and have clothes on our back. Went to a good school. We had a home. I was new. I would get up and go to school and someone would take me. But if I came home upset, I was told to shut up, or I was ignored. Children are supposed to be seen, not heard, right?

Laurie James: Oh, go. You know, stop crying, or I'll give you something to cry about. Yes, that's the one that I got a lot.

Kati Morton: Yes. And then what does that tell us? It tells us our emotions aren't okay, and that we can't express them and they're not safe there. So we kind of grow up trying to find our... do our best, I guess, to stuff them down, to hide them away, to put them somewhere else where they won't be seen and we won't be hurt.

It causes us to people-please, that fawning, because if we keep them happy, then they won't say, I'll give you something to cry about anymore, right? They won't harm us with any of those words. I think emotional neglect is probably one of the most common. But honestly, I can talk about a ton of different traumas. We think of trauma as like a big T trauma, like I said, like a big issue, but there's a ton of little T's, things, like moving a lot so you didn't feel like you had a safe foundation. That can erode your confidence. It can erode your emotional regulation. It's hard for you to stay regulated.

Laurie James: Yeah, you're trying to fit in everywhere you go.

Kati Morton: Yeah, exactly. If our parents went through a divorce, feel like our family's broken up. That can be traumatic. Being bullied. There's a ton of different ways, even financial struggles. People don't talk enough about how traumatic that can be to feel like you don't have enough. I don't know if I can pay my bills this month. There's a lot of ways that we can fawn as a way to protect ourselves. Traumas don't always look like the way that it's often talked about in media.

Laurie James: Yeah, and it's okay. The other thing I would just want to say about the threat responses, the fight, flight, freeze and fawn, and tell me what your take is on this, their responses, nervous system responses that we need, and that has kept us safe for all these years. The problem is when we get stuck in one of those and we are then stuck up in our sympathetic and we stay there. I mean, it's okay to go up and do it sometimes, or, you know, sometimes we are feeling threatened and we need to run and we need to flee, or you're somebody's taking advantage of you, so you need to fight. Or in a certain instance, it's just, yes, maybe it's easier to just appease somebody who's really upset. That's an interaction with somebody at Starbucks or the grocery store, but not to do it in your day-in and day-out life.

Kati Morton: Yes, I agree 100%. Our stress response to fight, flight, freeze, fawn exists for a reason, right? Its whole goal is to keep us alive and to keep us happy and healthy, and so we don't want to not have it. But like to your point, we don't want to stay in it forever either, and we weren't actually like our nervous system was not wired to stay in it forever, because then we get things like burnout, and people have, you know, what they call a mental breakdown, or they have an emotional breakdown, and it's really just, I've been in my stress response too long.

A big, important piece about the stress response is when our amygdala is firing. That's part of our stress response and our limbic system. These are just parts of your brain that sound the alarm to say we're under threat. When that happens, our prefrontal cortex is offline. And while people are like, what does that mean? That really means the adult in the room is not there. They're like, I gotta check out, because we just need to keep us alive. We don't need to put organized thought together. We don't need to plan. We won't even act like ourselves. That's why, when we get really stressed out or maxed out, we're like, you say things you don't mean. You act in ways that aren't really who you feel you are, because that prefrontal cortex is like, See you when you calm down, part of this. So you don't, technically aren't acting like yourself.

Laurie James: Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. Our society rewards us to live up in our sympathetic nervous system, get more done, work harder. We're on social media, then we come home and watch TV. We're not allowing ourselves and our nervous system to come down and take breaks. That's one of the things I love about what you talk a lot about is that self-care and giving yourself that time to just reconnect with yourself, through journaling, through different ways, because everybody's different, to give yourself that break. We need it. Our bodies are not meant to be in this chronic state of stress.

Kati Morton: No, it's so hard on our system, right? I mean, we've all felt it. You know, when you're in a really stressful time and you just like, cry randomly, or maybe that's just me, but I'm like, a cry and like, nothing will be happening, and someone will be like, How are you? And I'm like, Whoa! Like, don't even ask me. I can't even tell you how I'm doing. This is how I'm doing.

Laurie James: Yes, you physically are seeing what's happening. It's like we have no resilience, right? And resilience is like that, we call it like window of tolerance. You can talk about either way. It's essentially our ability to weather life's storms, and if we don't take breaks, if we don't spend time with people who help us feel seen, heard, and understood, if we don't invest in that then we'll be crying all the time when people ask us how we're doing. I'll be melting down in Starbucks drive-through or, you know, not wanting to go into the grocery store until I get myself together. You know, it's like, it's hard to sustain life like that. We're not supposed to be hypervigilant forever.

Laurie James: Yeah, and I've done all of those, thinking. I've cried in the parking lot before I went.

Kati Morton: I've been there. Working to do a lot less of that.

Laurie James: Same, trying my best. Got to build up that resilience, right? So going back to the people-pleasing, if somebody listening is like, okay, yes, I'm a people-pleaser, and they want to work on it, but they feel like doing so is going to disappoint others. How can somebody listening learn to step into less people-pleasing? Maybe that setting a boundary without feeling consumed by guilt.

Kati Morton: That's so tricky. Yes, I have a hard time with this myself, and I've done a lot of therapy as a result. There's a couple of pieces, and the first is to be honest with yourself about the relationship, and this is for better for worse. A lot of times we're making assumptions. We're assuming that they're going to be upset, right?

I cannot tell you the number of times I have placed a very easy boundary, meaning, like, Oh, I already made plans. I can't make it, right? Old me would have double-booked myself and be like, I'll be a little late, but I can definitely get there by this time. And then I'm like, racing from one to the other, all the while not enjoying myself at all. Then I say, and I'm so nervous and so worried that they're going to be disappointed or upset, and they're like, Okay, no biggie, but see you next time. Like, it's not an issue.

Laurie James: Yeah, yeah. And you're like, wait a minute, and you had this like, major anxiety session with yourself about how they were going to respond.

Kati Morton: Yes, and in my practice, because I've been working on this in my own therapy for probably, like, six years, it's never been, I can tell you with 100% certainty, in my experience, it's never been what I thought it was going to be. So take some time and be honest with yourself about that.

I do want to throw in the caveat that if you have someone who lashes out when you say, I'm so sorry I can't make it, or I would love to help you. I already told so and so I do this. Maybe we could do it another day. If they react in this like, I can't believe you, how dare you do that? and they lash out and they're angry and aggressive, that says so much more about them than it does about you. That's the first step, I always think, is just assessing because I always thought it was going to be this big deal, and it never was.

The second piece, and this is something that I personally actually still trying to unpack, so I'll see if I can describe it in a way that's very clear, is that the guilt that we feel isn't actually guilt. Hang with me. Guilt is I did something wrong, right? Like in a court of law, I'm found guilty, there's evidence, and I did something, you stole something, I hurt somebody or hit and run in a car. Yes, I did something bad. The guilt that we feel about placing a boundary...

Laurie James: Letting somebody down. In my opinion, you feel guilty when you did something wrong, but letting somebody down and honoring yourself is not doing anything wrong, right?

Kati Morton: But you may have believed that it was like somebody might have told you too, then that's another childhood or other experience in your life where you were made to feel like it was wrong for you to put yourself first. You're so selfish. I can't believe you do that, right? We can internalize that, and it makes it really difficult for us to prioritize ourselves.

I talk in the book, and I've even talked on my channel about keeping promises to yourself and how important that is. We often prioritize keeping promises to other people, and our stuff is the first to go out the window. You know, like I really did need to take a walk by myself today, or I really did need to journal, but I should make those cupcakes for my kids' bake sale, and I should do that now, or they do need me to do this. I should run that errand for them. We immediately swip swap, and that's like again, back to the confidence piece. Keeping those promises helps with that confidence, and then, in turn, will help us stop people-pleasing and set those boundaries. It's all tied together, unfortunately.

Laurie James: Yeah, yeah, it is. It very much is. So you work with one-on-one with clients, and have spoken many large companies. What similarities do you see between high achievers and in high-pressure environments and everyday people trying to stop people-pleasing?

Kati Morton: You kind of touched on it earlier. We as a society, praise like hustle culture, and it doesn't matter if we're high-achieving in a career or we're high-achieving at home. I know we like to place a lot of emphasis on like, well, they make a lot of money, or they're in this big position of power. But like, someone who runs a home and raises like four children, that's quite a position of power, and it's also a ways more stressful environment than a lot of times. And it's also 24/7, right? You know, there's a lot to talk about there.

But I think in general, the thing that I see with people like that is burnout, is this lack of keeping promises with self, this inability to set boundaries, and this belief that, and I even struggle with this. I write about it in the book that's like, one of my first revelations I share with you is that I tied my ability to be love, my worthiness has always been tied to my productivity. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. So I always thought I had a hustle to earn it. So like, if somebody does something nice for me, I immediately want to return the favor, because I'm like, oh my god, now I'm indebted to you, and like I didn't earn... I cannot be behind that. I feel like I have to give more so that I have feel like I've earned the relationship, or I've earned your love or your respect. It's all has to be very much earned. Regardless of who I talk to, whether it's, you know, the C-suite of a huge corporation, or it's a bunch of single mothers, it's all the same. I think a lot of people who work hard in life, that's how I'd rather say, is like working hard in life, all have this belief that love and attention and acceptance is tied to how much you produce.

Laurie James: Yeah, productivity and your to-do list, yes. I mean, 100% guilty of that, and that's something that I still struggle with. I'm so much better at it, but I still struggle with it as well. And if I have, like, a lull and things, I'm like, wait a minute, what's wrong? What's going on? And I'm not a very good vacationer, because I'll try to, like, quote, unquote, do stuff.

Kati Morton: I'm like, I'm gonna read two books on vacation.

Laurie James: You're like, yeah. Why so crazy making?

Kati Morton: No.

Laurie James: So your new book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? looks at emotional loops and self-sabotage. How can it help people break free from patterns like people-pleasing boundaries and rebuilding their confidence?

Kati Morton: What I hope to do in the book is take you along as I try to do just that, as I try to untangle, as I try to stop. The way that I try to do it, it's the way that works for me. So again, it's not a prescriptive type of book, like, let me tell you how to do this. It's more like a come along with me story, like, Hey, I'm just going to show you what I've learned and what I'm still learning. Not everything is a full solution, right? It's not like, I'm quote, unquote fixed. We're all works in progress.

Throughout the book, what I try to offer people is, here are some revelations I've had. Here are some revelations my audience has had. Here are some stories about how that played out. So my hope is that people can see themselves in it. Have their own Aha! Moments of like, oh my God, I believe that about myself too, like you and I were just commiserating about this, I tie my worth to my productivity, and it's so terrible. To untangle that, first, we obviously have to understand and then I offer different ways I've tried to act, so the behaviors that I've changed and which ones worked and didn't work.

I even talked about things that like I tried to do this like my therapist. This is a story I share in the book that like my therapist had told me that I needed to, like, I was super competitive and it was ruining my relationships. And she was like, well, try to not do that behavior. See if you can try something. She gave me some ways to do it, and the only way I could is to pretend I didn't care. And she was like, that's not right. You're not doing this right. And there you'll see in the book, like, there's things I do that work and things I do that don't. And my hope is that as you follow me along, there's one little nugget that you're like, hey, I think I could try that. I think I could try to act in a different way and let yourself out. It sounds silly.

The one thing I as a therapist have learned over and over is that we have all the answers ourselves. We just need someone to help us tease them out. I'm hoping this book helps people tease them out and realize that it's not a presto fixo, I'm all better. If I read this book, I'm going to be all better. It's more like I'm giving you some good questions to ask yourself, hopefully some insights resonate with you along the way, and you can choose the next time someone asks you to do something you don't have the bandwidth to do you for at least a second think I could say no, and that's huge progress, and just recognizing that progress. A lot of it's just the understanding of where it comes from. Because for me, that's been life-changing. If I know where it comes from, and I kind of understand that belief system that it's coming out of, it gives me more tools or a better perspective as I move forward, if that makes sense.

Laurie James: Totally, absolutely. I mean, you know, having that awareness, you know, starting with awareness of, you know, one, I'm doing this, I've got this pattern, and I'm noticing I'm having this pattern. Okay, now that I notice it, what can I start doing? You know, can I catch myself when I'm doing it? And then maybe the third time around is, you have the awareness, you notice it, and then you make a change.

Kati Morton: Yeah, and it's so hard, it takes time, right? We want to make change happen now, and I get it, but it didn't happen overnight. This is like conditioning over time. But if you can catch yourself one time, like I said, and maybe you don't fall into that pit of despair, I'm so stupid, I'm so lazy, maybe you're like, Hey, I'm gonna go for a walk. That's amazing progress.

Laurie James: Right? Absolutely. So as we come to a close of this amazing conversation that I've loved so much, what's one confession you want to share with our listeners that maybe we haven't touched on yet?

Kati Morton: A confession we haven't touched on, I always confess anyway, I guess my confession would be that I still mess up. I know better, and I worked on this book for over a year, and I've been in therapy since I was 15. I'm 41 and I still mess up. I mean, I still act like a child, I still pick fights, I still retreat, I still am passive aggressive. I do all sorts of things I'm not proud of. I just think it's important for people to know that knowing better doesn't mean doing better, but we're all as long as we're trying to do better next time, that's okay.

Laurie James: Yeah, that's a beautiful note to end on, because it's so true. It's like we're human beings. We're not meant to be perfect, no, and we're going to sometimes respond, sometimes react, and that's okay. In my opinion, it's, can you come back and repair it, and can you try and do better next time? I mean, that's the key, right? And our human experience.

Kati Morton: Yes, and that's what I've been working on. I'm proud of myself for repairing more and doing... when it does mess up. Before, I would like retreat, but now I repair, and you have to acknowledge those little wins. Again, those small steps make all the difference.

Laurie James: Yeah. Well, Kati, thank you so much for having this conversation with me today and being here with our listeners. Where can people find you and your new book?

Kati Morton: Yeah, thank you, Laurie, great to be here. My new book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever you find your books, also at your local library, you can ask them to get you a copy. I'm on social media, everything's just Kati Morton, that's K-A-T-I M-O-R-T-O-N, and, yeah, I'll see you guys over there. I post on TikTok, Instagram, everything. So, yeah, yeah.

Laurie James: Wonderful. Well, I followed you on Instagram, and I am going to pre-order your book now. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you, Kati. Thank you for listening to this episode of Confessions of a Free Bird. I'm grateful to be in your ears and hearts. If you're interested in becoming a free bird, I'd love to support you. Please check out my website at Laurieejames.com  to learn how we can work together, or to sign up for my newsletter so you can receive tips on how to date and relationship differently and ultimately find more freedom and joy in your life. If you found this podcast helpful, please follow or subscribe, rate and review, and share it with friends so they can find more freedom in their second or third act. Also, until next time.